Fighters

[Snoring Rock]

I have not done a lot of high level play with C&C. But I have a player who thinks the fighter is weak. He states that there is not much more damage they can do as they advance. They do not get extra attacks until 10th level. The combat dominance is, as discussed here many times, not all that exciting.

So does anyone agree? I think that it seems unrealistic to see fighters taking out big monsters one swing at a time. Multiple attacks seems ok. Just at what level? Has anyone here thought the fighter needs more attacks/damage at higher levels? Anyone here play higher level stuff?

[mgtremaine]

The group I'm running is in the 10th level neighborhood. My take is, Fighters rock. What your friend probably has not noticed is the +Base to hit with weapon specialization. Fighters are generally a good 3-5 points better then the other martial classes and gobs better then the non-martial classes. The fighters are going to hit, they are going to do damage and the extra attack only makes it worse.

But I'm sure you'll hear otherwise, lots a people do not like vanilla they want chocolate carmel swirl with nutz.

-MIke

[Arduin]

I have the Fighter use the Cleric XP chart. Also they continue to get +1 to BtH all the way up. That progression doesn't stop like the other Classes.

[Dracyian]

We got up to higher levels in our Greyhawk campaign and outfitted with a magical bastard of Silver our fighter was nothing to be contended with lightley. I wil be honest, he didnt something stupendous every session or every fight, but he he was a whole lot of consistancy when it came to a fight taking up the front line and holding it while everyone else did what they were good at.

For me every party needs a fighter, a knight or paladin can do in a pinch but a fighter is going to be the driving force that lets the rest of the party do what they specialize in

[dudeness of air]

I do not think the fighter is weak, but I think that it is limited because a fighter is limited to his weapon damage. He does the same amount of damage from the same weapon at 10th level, as he does at 1st level. If my fighter has a +1 magic longsword that is a 1d8 roll for damage plus the strength modifier, +1 for magic damage. It does not matter whether the fighter is 1st level or 10th level, that damage does not change. Since this is the case the only way to increase the damage output from a fighter is additional attacks or two-weapon fighting.

I do agree that a fighter is necessary for any group. I have fought in enough battles to realize that a Paladin, Ranger, or Knight cannot quite replace what a fighter does for the group and would hesitate to go adventuring without one.

[Lobo316]

I normally don't play (at leat GM) much beyond 12th level anyway. Heck, we've not even got out of the 1st three levels since running C&C, but I think the fighter is fine for the most part. Add some advantages from the CKG to give 'em a little variety perhaps...

Here's how I run fighters in my game...
Note, you will have to take a gander at the Advantages in the CKG) to get the full gist of some of this, but this gives you an idea.

Fighter
At 4th level, the fighter chooses one of the following: Combat Dominance, Cleave, Power Attack or Toughness. Each of these is slightly different than as presented in the Advantages, see the following...

Combat Dominance runs as presented in the class description (4th printing). At 8th level, the fighter can use Combat Dominance on 2 HD creatures, and at 12th level, 3HD creatures.
Cleaving Strike works like the advantage (see advantages). Upon reaching 8th level, the fighter can use Cleaving Strike twice in one round. At 12th level, the fighter can use Cleaving Strike three times per round. At 16th level, there is no limit to the number of uses per round.
Power Attack runs as the advantage, plus at 8th level, add +1 to your damage when using power attack. At 12th level add +2 to damage when using power attack, and add +3 at 16th level.
Toughness is as presented in the advantages section. Add 1 additional HP at levels 8, 12 & 16.

[Relaxo]

Mechanically, mathmatically, (munchkinly, if you will) the fighter kicks more ass more consistently more of the time, always. They really live up to the name.

Not as flashy as a Ranger adding level to attacks against Ogres (or whatever they choose), I can see that. But ogres and trolls and goblins... you take the ogre, I'll sweep the field of the others. fighter kicks ass.

If the player feels their fighting is boring, take a gander at the Guide to old school gaming examples of the ninja jump and the other example I can't recall right now, or maybe DL the QS for Dungeon Crawl Classics and read over 'mighty deeds of arms'... don't integrate all those rules, but just glean some inspiration...

also, entice / involve that fighter with RP subplots. Maybe a wench at the pub takes a fancy to him, or her little brother tries to be like the fighter and gets captured by goblins or something. he might have mistaken identity and assassins are after him thinking he's the whatever from far away...

just some (totally unoriginal, long day, sorry) ideas. but if the player isn't having fun, it's hard to talk someone into having fun, and they may start to feel like you're giving them the 'your doing it wrong's.... a downward anti-fun spiral.

http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/matthew- ... 59558.html

[Treebore]

As I have stated before, several times, I agree the Fighter is underwhelming. Hence, my house rules.

[NJPDX]

To parrot Relaxo, I agree that opening up DCC RPG and perusing its "mighty deeds or arms" mechanic is well worth it. You couldn't port everything over, but that might have the best bog standard warrior I've ever seen in an RPG.

[jdizzy001]

i usually drop combat dominance and award my fighters their extra atk at lvl 5.

[Snoring Rock]

Yeah, combat dominance is lame as written. I like sweeping minions but it is not all THAT. However, I do not think the fighter is broken. D20 fighters do not do more damage with the same weapon unless the feat chosen, allows it. The best portal to more damage is more magic and more attacks per round. Hitting each round is good too.

I just think that combat dominance could be fixed, of give the second attack per round at a lower level than 10th. I have not found another way to fix CD yet.

[Treebore]

Yeah, combat dominance is lame as written. I lie sweeping minions but it is not all THAT. However, I do not think the fighter is broken. D20 fighters do not do more damage wit the same reason unless the feat chosen allows it. The best portal to more damage is more magic and more attacks per round. Hitting each round is good too.

I just think that combat dominance could be fixed, of give the second attack per round at a lower level than 10th. I have not found another way to fix CD yet.

My players who have played a fighter have loved my CD, when their dice are hot enough.

[Relaxo]

i usually drop combat dominance and award my fighters their extra atk at lvl 5.

oh that's an elegant and simple solution! almost obvious, actually. No wonder I never thought of it, LOL.

[Rigon]

Here is how I "fixed" the fighter in my games. It seems to be working out.

Extra Attacks: : Most classes gain additional melee/ranged attacks each round as they advance in level. Whenever a character’s BtH is evenly divided by 6, you gain an extra attack.
-fighters gain extra attacks at levels 6, 12, & 18 (4 attacks max barring cleave and combat dominance)
-rangers, barbarians, berserkers, paladins, and cavaliers gain extra attacks at levels 7 & 13 (3 attacks max)
-clerics, druids, thieves, assassins, and bards gain an extra attack at level 12 (2 attacks max)
-wizards and sorcerers never gain an extra attack

Fighter: As the PHB, with the following changes/additions:
Weapon Specialization: At first level, the fighter selects one weapon to become an expert with. The fighter gains a +1 to hit and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 every 6 levels thereafter (+2 at 7th, +3 at 13th, etc) to a total bonus of +5. Furthermore, a fighter can add his to hit bonus from specialization to his BtH for determining eligibility for extra attacks, but only with the specialized weapon. (Extra attacks with specialized weapon at levels 5, 10, & 15)
Cleave: Beginning at 2nd level, if the fighter slays his opponent, he may make an immediate attack against another nearby (within 5 ft) opponent.
Combat Dominance: Whenever a new attack is gained, increase the HD of the creature affected by 1. So at 8th level, the fighter can use combat dominance on all 2 HD or less creatures, etc. It also works in conjunction with the fighters extra attacks.

R-

[Snoring Rock]

I do not want to fiddle too much with the rules as written. Switching CD around is one answer. I want something really simple though. I am leaning toward giving the second attack per round at 5th level. Along with advantages as written in the CKG, I think it makes sense.

Building on CD usually means giving away HD info to players. I want to leave CD as it is. That is fun at times. In my Wilderlands world, there are lots of armies built of 1st level fighters to be mowed down by mighty fighter PC's.

Anyone think that extra attack at 5th is unbalancing? I don't think so at this point. Boosting damage done by weapons at higher level seems unrealistic to me.

Rigon has some good stuff though. I may borrow some of that.

[Rigon]

I do not want to fiddle too much with the rules as written. Switching CD around is one answer. I want something really simple though. I am leaning toward giving the second attack per round at 5th level. Along with advantages as written in the CKG, I think it makes sense.

Building on CD usually means giving away HD info to players. I want to leave CD as it is. That is fun at times. In my Wilderlands world, there are lots of armies built of 1st level fighters to be mowed down by mighty fighter PC's.

Anyone thing that extra attack at 5th it unbalancing? I don't think so at this point. Boosting damage done by weapons at higher level seems unrealistic to me.

Well, just shooting from the hip here, but you could allow the fighter to increase the damage die of the weapon being used at a certain level interval along with moving up extra attacks. Something like this:

For every 4th level, the fighter's damage die increases by one die type. Ex. A 4th level fighter using a longsword (1d8 damage normally), would doe 1d10 damage. At level 8, it would do 1d12 damage, at 12th level, it would do 2d12, etc. Or something like that.

Like I said, I'm just shooting from the hip. I spent several weeks and went through several variations of my fighter "fix" before I figured out one that I like.

R-

[jdizzy001]

i don't think it's over-powered (but i'm biased since I do it). a 5th level fighter IMO is no different than a magic-user launching fireballs at baddies. in fact, as copared to the fireball, the extra atk is nothing.

another option, which I enjoy but don't recommend for cnc, is take the 4e approach. in 4e the fighter's CD allows him to mark, challenge/ taunt baddies. once you have atked your baddy, he bcomes marked until the start of the fightr's next turn. if the baddy attempts to hit anyone other than the fighter, he suffers a -2 penalty to hit his target. in addition the fighter may make a free atk against him as a way of saying, "hey! we're fighting!"

but I prefer just awarding the extra atk early. giving out some advantages could be cool too.l

[Arduin]

another option, which I enjoy but don't recommend for cnc, is take the 4e approach. in 4e the fighter's CD allows him to mark, challenge/ taunt baddies. once you have atked your baddy, he bcomes marked until the start of the fightr's next turn.

Yeah, the 4E paradigm of every class having magic powers is bit too video gamish for C&C.

[Omote]

I am definitely against adding extra attacks at lower levels. That's just too powerful to players who power-game up attacks and damage potential. Many of us would probably agree that C&C is not a power-gamer's game, but I happen to have one players where it is ingrained in their soul. He has done everything he can to make sure is damage output is as high as possible, and has even convinced other characters IN GAME to help him with this. Ugh, it sucks, but it is real and can happen to you too!

If you are dead set on adding attack, may I suggest giving the fighter 2 attacks / 3 rounds at level 5 and than finally having the full 2 attacks at level 10.

~O

[Arduin]

Many of us would probably agree that C&C is not a power-gamer's game, but I happen to have one players where it is ingrained in their soul. He has done everything he can to make sure is damage output is as high as possible, and has even convinced other characters IN GAME to help him with this. Ugh, it sucks, but it is real and can happen to you too!

In my 35 yrs of GMing I've found that those types of players REALLY suck at tactics. So much so that they tend to die withing one or two gaming sessions when I GM.

[Omote]

Many of us would probably agree that C&C is not a power-gamer's game, but I happen to have one players where it is ingrained in their soul. He has done everything he can to make sure is damage output is as high as possible, and has even convinced other characters IN GAME to help him with this. Ugh, it sucks, but it is real and can happen to you too!

In my 35 yrs of GMing I've found that those types of players REALLY suck at tactics. So much so that they tend to die withing one or two gaming sessions when I GM.

Being vindictive doesn't help a gaming group. In my particular case, this guy thinks that is is not a power-gamer, though the whole group mentions it to him frequently. He still denies it. What he does do is math-up things and give probabilities and actual, physical statistical reports on what certain things would be better for his character. In these cases he does convince some of the players to donate magic and money to his cause to statistically better the chances for group survival. Yes, in C&C. I've been playing with this guy for the better part of 15 years. he's a fun player, and makes some interesting characters, but ultimately all of his PCs are the same... mathematically probable at being as best as they can be. This is why I have kept to the RAW as much as possible for fighters.

~O

[Arduin]

Being vindictive doesn't help a gaming group.

Illogical comment. Reread what I wrote.

[Omote]

I see. Unfortunately the player I speak of is a statistician at heart and is somewhat good at tactics (years or wargaming and what not). That being said, we've all seen it. People on internet MBs usually come back with a line about killing off the troublesome or annoying characters. I assumed that is what you meant. I simply can't change my gaming world too much because one players is stats happy.

Though it is somewhat funny, most recently that character's whole family was killed off and his estates within the setting burned to the ground for bad tactics. I guess it all comes around full circle, eventually.

~O

[Arduin]

Though it is somewhat funny, most recently that character's whole family was killed off and his estates within the setting burned to the ground for bad tactics. I guess it all comes around full circle, eventually.

~O

Yes, don't worry about it. As long as players aren't meta gaming too much I let nature take its course. Eventually the narrow focus becomes problematic when playing in a sand box type campaign.

I mean how does a PC ask around for a +5 sword? Any NPC will just give them a "WTF are you talking about?"

[Snoring Rock]

All true, my players started out playing the game, but sadly with experience are starting to power game it some. Ooh, I don't like that. I think I will wait and see. I run Tegel manor every year using a 9th level fighter in the group at GenCon. No one ever complains then. I think I am going to back away from the extra attacks for now. Lets just see how it plays out.

After all, hp's are hard to come by in C&C and that is true for monsters as well. Maybe RAW is better off as it is.

Thanks guys!

Omote, Lord Vader with new head gear is awesome!

[Rigon]

Omote, Lord Vader with new head gear is awesome!

That's his Con on the Cob look.

R-

[Snoring Rock]

Wait. You know, more hp's is not actually a character having more health. It is a statistical representation of what the odds are of a higher or lower level character receiving the killing blow. In a battle, though one may be hit several times for so much damage, it may not really be anything more than a mere scratch. If the last hp taken that represents that one time in a thousand when a stray arrow or a glancing blow lands just right and opens an artery.

Fighters increase in hp's every level, further lessening their chances of death. That make them more powerful. They become better at hitting each level. They gain advantages, they find magic weapons. They do in fact inflict more damage as they rise in level and become harder to kill. What the heck is this discussion about?

Ha, be thankful "I" as the mighty CK do not strike you down with my wrath!

Whew.

[Dracyian]

Wait. You know, more hp's is not actually a character having more health. It is a statistical representation of what the odds are of a higher or lower level character receiving the killing blow. In a battle, though one may be hit several times for so much damage, it may not really be anything more than a mere scratch. If the last hp taken that represents that one time in a thousand when a stray arrow or a glancing blow lands just right and opens an artery.

Fighters increase in hp's every level, further lessening their chances of death. That make them more powerful. They become better at hitting each level. They gain advantages, they find magic weapons. They do in fact inflict more damage as they rise in level and become harder to kill. What the heck is this discussion about?

Ha, be thankful "I" as the mighty CK do not strike you down with my wrath!

Whew.

Are there more than one of you in there?

[mbeacom]

i don't think it's over-powered (but i'm biased since I do it). a 5th level fighter IMO is no different than a magic-user launching fireballs at baddies. in fact, as copared to the fireball, the extra atk is nothing.

another option, which I enjoy but don't recommend for cnc, is take the 4e approach. in 4e the fighter's CD allows him to mark, challenge/ taunt baddies. once you have atked your baddy, he bcomes marked until the start of the fightr's next turn. if the baddy attempts to hit anyone other than the fighter, he suffers a -2 penalty to hit his target. in addition the fighter may make a free atk against him as a way of saying, "hey! we're fighting!"

but I prefer just awarding the extra atk early. giving out some advantages could be cool too.l

This is actually a pretty good idea. Combat Challenge from 4E is easily portable over to any system. It would fit nicely with C&C actually. There's nothing magical about a fighter who is able to make it harder for those he's engaged in melee with to attack his friends and who is able to make it dangerous for his foes to ignore him once he's initiated melee. It's flavorful, feels realistic and is very easily managed. Naturally, 4E took it too far and kind of ruined it. But the concept is sound and would solve some of the issues while making the fighter a bit more tactically interesting. I personally like the idea of a fighter that can engage enemies and punish them if they dare to disregard him and go after his allies.

[jdizzy001]

Personally, I'm not against it, beings i've played hours of 4e but it has been my observation that most "old school" players distain anything from 4e. Regardless of it's utility it does require extra book keeping on the part of the player, just saying.

You know what bothers me most about 4e, had it been called anything except dnd, it would have been hailed a breath of fresh air and an original idea. But, since wotc decided to take their dnd label to it all hades broke lose. /rant off.