aside: Kobolds...

[Relaxo]

My understanding is that this was gradual over the years, but when did kobolds change from dog-like to reptilian?

I remember pug like faces with huge Gollum eyes, vestigial horns, and rat tails. That's a kobold to me.

I suppose it's like the orcs with pig faces, but that never really stuck, or might have been just one illo in one book once, IIRC.

Just wondering and showing off how un-informed I am sometimes. LOL.

[Lord Dynel]

Heh...orcs with pig faces. Listen to RFI by any chance?

But yeah, I know the big push to reptilian, dragon-descended kobolds came in 3rd edition. There were still dog references in 2e, but by the 3e MM they were almost all gone. Later in 3.x, they went to full-blown dragon relatives. I'm partial to the kobolds having dog-like traits myself.

[Relaxo]

not sure what RFI is, but there's some old school book that shows Orcs as pig-head people. I remember thinking orc rhymes with pork, so it's perfect!

If it was 3rd ed that's how I missed it. (Sort of like the lithe halflings). stopped playing around the time 3e came out. (not a conscious anti 3e thing, just graduated college and life happened).

[kreider204]

not sure what RFI is, but there's some old school book that shows Orcs as pig-head people.

Definitely 1st ed. - the Monster Manual and the cover of module B2 come to mind.

[Arduin]

My understanding is that this was gradual over the years, but when did kobolds change from dog-like to reptilian?

The reptilian angle came with the AD7D 1st Ed MM in 1977

kobold.png (149.64 KiB) Viewed 1506 times

Note the clearly reptilian scales & horns.

[Dracyian]

having grown up playing Magic the gathering then transitioning over to C&C and all the other goodness this is what I grew up imagining kobolds as

[Lurker]

My understanding is that this was gradual over the years, but when did kobolds change from dog-like to reptilian?

The reptilian angle came with the AD7D 1st Ed MM in 1977

kobold.png

Note the clearly reptilian scales & horns.

Thanks, I rememberd back in the day as it looking like a dog reptile mix but couldn't remember where I had that mental picture from.

[Julian Grimm]

These were the ones I started with and I prefer them over the others.

[Rigon]

I don't know, JG. That looks like some kind of mutated iguana to me.

R-

[Arduin]

These were the ones I started with and I prefer them over the others.

I too remember these guys. From way back.

[Arduin]

having grown up playing Magic the gathering then transitioning over to C&C and all the other goodness this is what I grew up imagining kobolds as

Yep. Magic changed them from Reptile to dog. They were never dogs in AD&D.

[Treebore]

I much prefer the reptile angle myself, despite having used them since the old days, and their dog like looks. I

[Relaxo]

Arduin's looks dog-like in the face, to me.
clearly scaled... never really noticed.

The Pic Julian posted is the kobold image I cling to. though it's not especially doggish, is it?
whats up wiht my brain? LOL

[kreider204]

Arduin's looks dog-like in the face, to me.
clearly scaled... never really noticed.

Ya, the original were both sort of reptilian and dog-like, but the full on mini-dragon men thing was later.

BTW, from the 81 D&D Basic rulebook:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

[Arduin]

BTW, from the 81 D&D Basic rulebook:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

Ok. I remember now. They tried to change it to dogs later in the game. I didn't really play Basic.

[kreider204]

BTW, from the 81 D&D Basic rulebook:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

Ok. I remember now. They tried to change it to dogs later in the game. I didn't really play Basic.

Ya, neither the Holmes basic book (the one I had) nor the 1st ed. MM specifically say anything about dogginess, though that MM picture certainly does look a bit canine, esp. in the snout area.

[PeelSeel2]

These were the ones I started with and I prefer them over the others.

Isn't that from B5 Horror on the hill? Wherever, I always thought it was a goblin.

[Julian Grimm]

I first saw it in the 2e Monstrous Compendium.

[TheMetal1]

not sure what RFI is, but there's some old school book that shows Orcs as pig-head people. I remember thinking orc rhymes with pork, so it's perfect!

RFI stands for Roll For Initiative. It's a podcast: http://rfipodcast.com/show/ They bill themselves as the "Original 1st Edition AD&D Podcast"

Save or Die Podcast is another one out there that talks about D&D>

Used to listen to a bunch of podcast - Fear the Boot, Dragons Landing Inn, etc. But only FTB is still around, but you can find links to a lot of the old podcast out there on the web or on iTunes.

[Lord Dynel]

not sure what RFI is, but there's some old school book that shows Orcs as pig-head people. I remember thinking orc rhymes with pork, so it's perfect!

RFI stands for Roll For Initiative. It's a podcast: http://rfipodcast.com/show/ They bill themselves as the "Original 1st Edition AD&D Podcast"

Save or Die Podcast is another one out there that talks about D&D>

Used to listen to a bunch of podcast - Fear the Boot, Dragons Landing Inn, etc. But only FTB is still around, but you can find links to a lot of the old podcast out there on the web or on iTunes.

Thanks, Metal, I was just revisiting this thread and was going to answer that! There's been a long-running joke on there about orcs with pig faces.

Ya, neither the Holmes basic book (the one I had) nor the 1st ed. MM specifically say anything about dogginess, though that MM picture certainly does look a bit canine, esp. in the snout area.

While that's true, this...

[quote="Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules, Moldvay version, page B37]These small, evil dog-like men usually live underground.[/quote]

...appears to be where the dog references come from. I wasn't playing back in the late 70s/early 80s, but I have heard that from players from that era. And the Monster Manual gives them a doglike imagery. I think they look more doglike, in both the entry picture and the full-page picture on the page following the entry in the MM. But they're also described as "dwarf-like" back in Holmes D&D so who knows?

[kreider204]

Ya, neither the Holmes basic book (the one I had) nor the 1st ed. MM specifically say anything about dogginess, though that MM picture certainly does look a bit canine, esp. in the snout area.

While that's true, this...
Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules, Moldvay version, page B37
"These small, evil dog-like men usually live underground."
...appears to be where the dog references come from.

Yep, I posted that before.

And the Monster Manual gives them a doglike imagery.

Yep, I said that too.

[Lord Dynel]

Eh, don't mind me then!

[Relaxo]

I think I recall a book listing once that said they yapped like little dogs too.

regardless, they're still good sword fodder unless they team up on you with traps and then they're fun.
>:-)