Instant Effects Question...Petrification

[Lobo316]

OK, specifically, I'm going to narrow this down to being turned to stone, but the mechanics can be applied to any "instant" effect, like poison or whatever.

I'm wanting to use a gorgon as an upcoming challenge for the PCs, but using monsters with "instant death" effects is always a tricky propostion. I could try and find another monster, sure, but let's say I'm instead going with either A) a different "breed" of Gorgon (a northern or frost variety) or B) a Faux Gorgon, something to scare the players into thinking they are facing one thing, when it's actually another (more like a construct, made to resemble a gorgon).

Now, I know there are going to be some of you that are hard core "hey, it's a gorgon, medusa, basilisk, whatever <fill in the blank>, fail the save and your stone" and I understand that (and respect it), but I'm looking at something as an alternate method because, well, save and dies do suck, and maybe some of you have done or use something simliar. Anyhow, this is what I have...

Option A: Frost Gorgon (alternate breed): The breath weapon of a frost gorgon is a blast of frigid air that can slow, freeze, and eventually petrify its victims. This effect is five feet wide at the base and 20 feet wide at its end, with a maximum range of 60 feet. Anything within this area must make a successful constitution save or have its movement halved and suffer 1d4 points of Con loss (do not adjust hit points for Con loss, instead, victims suffer a loss of 2 hit points per point of Con lost). Victims will take this damage each, round until they pass a Con save to end the effects, or turn to ice when they reach 0 Con (this check is make at the start of the victims turn). The breath weapon can be used 4 times per day. A target already affected by the breath weapon, who gets blasted again, will be subject to the additional Con/HP loss, but will not have to make multiple saves to end the effect (one save will do).

Option B: Slow Petrification: The breath weapon of a gorgon is a potent gas that literally petrifies its victims. This effect is five feet wide at the base and 20 feet wide at its end, with a maximum range of 60 feet. Anything within this area must make a successful constitution save or begin turning to stone. Subsequent Saving throws are made at the start of thier turn...

First Failed Save, the victim is -2 on all attack actions and physical movement checks, and movement is recduced to 1/2 speed.
Second Failed Save, the victim is -4 on all actions and physical movement checks and his movement is limited to 5 feet per turn (successful save ends the effects)
Third Failed Save, the victim is turned to stone (successful save ends the effects)
The gorgon’s breath weapon extends into the astral and ethereal planes. Other gorgons are immune to this ability, which can be used 4 times per day.

Look forward to your thoughts and feedback. Thanks!

[KaiserKris]

These are certainly some cool variants. Even if one likes the odd 'instant kill' effect, there's nothing wrong with variant mechanics.

Personally, I've always ruled that petrification =/= death. The victim is alive and aware of what's happening and can sit there for ages if need be, provided nobody destroys them. Spells will in fact register that they are alive and in need of help.

I don't use it often, though.

[Arduin]

Personally, I've always ruled that petrification =/= death. The victim is alive and aware of what's happening and can sit there for ages if need be, provided nobody destroys them. Spells will in fact register that they are alive and in need of help.

Yes. A simple polymorph (stone to flesh) and voilà! Alive and well again. No need to have it kill a PC.

[KaiserKris]

I have strong memories of an old BBC version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe in which Aslan revives all of the petrified people in the Witch's castle. In fact, I've adapted that. A lucky find of a mass stone to flesh scroll made the difference between a battle against an evil mage being completely impossible and merely difficult.

In fact, that's how the paladin in my campaign met his divine mount.

And actually, they took over the mage's castle as a new base of operations. The depetrified people were their first retainers and followers.

[Lobo316]

Is there a Stone to Flesh spell in C&C? The only thing I'm seeing is the 6th level Transmute Flesh and Stone? Which can work of course.

And yea, I "can" do it, but after so many years of gaming, it just seems "formulaic" you know? I don't want to have to worry about getting them potions to "save" them. I'm leaning more towards wanting a different "mechanic" to challenge them.

[Captain_K]

Personally the three step process is cool, you could link a three step healing or restoration to each of those steps, what spells recover each step of that? You could link your steps to Gorgon age? Ex "young Gorgons" having three steps to stone, the middle aged takes just the last two, the ancient do it instantly.. but stone is not dead. Fun to make the PCs carry about or come back for their buddy. I love it when an... oops sorry about breaking off both of your arm Venus... so when you hold them in place, turn them back to flesh, have the arms been cleanly cut off? Stone to Flesh and a Regeneration? Also a great way to get rid of magical swords, shields, helms, etc... in stone form they are much more fragile...

Well thought out options, well done, nurf the monster, or make the recovery part of the quest before &/or after the encounter... being given the chance to have a scroll to counter the affect once or twice, in advance, is the essence of the old boy scout motto, "Be prepared!"

[Captain_K]

A sword and shield is formulaic too, but a darn nice one. If the PC know they're going after something that turns flesh to stone and they do NOT buy some potions or scroll or have a PC learn "stone to flesh" is just plain dumb. Make the PCs do the thinking, you just need to give some clues (like a road side shop selling life like stone carvings even the dwarf feels are too good to be true) if they are not smart enough to go prepared, turn them all into bird baths or better still bird port-a-potties too.

[Lobo316]

A sword and shield is formulaic too, but a darn nice one. If the PC know they're going after something that turns flesh to stone and they do NOT buy some potions or scroll or have a PC learn "stone to flesh" is just plain dumb. Make the PCs do the thinking, you just need to give some clues (like a road side shop selling life like stone carvings even the dwarf feels are too good to be true) if they are not smart enough to go prepared, turn them all into bird baths or better still bird port-a-potties too.

This is true, however, it goes back to the "formula". The PCs in this case will have no idea what they are going up against, and honestly, will not always know what they are going up against. That's part of the dangerous nature of the game. You don't always know what's around the corner, and though your idea/suggestion is certainly a good one, it's also what I'm trying to avoid, the "formula"....you face X, you get X hints, and bring X potions, etc.

Not that there is anything "wrong" with that, I agree with that. But, it's also nice to change it up now and again.

[Lobo316]

Personally the three step process is cool, you could link a three step healing or restoration to each of those steps, what spells recover each step of that? You could link your steps to Gorgon age? Ex "young Gorgons" having three steps to stone, the middle aged takes just the last two, the ancient do it instantly.. but stone is not dead. Fun to make the PCs carry about or come back for their buddy. I love it when an... oops sorry about breaking off both of your arm Venus... so when you hold them in place, turn them back to flesh, have the arms been cleanly cut off? Stone to Flesh and a Regeneration? Also a great way to get rid of magical swords, shields, helms, etc... in stone form they are much more fragile...

Well thought out options, well done, nurf the monster, or make the recovery part of the quest before &/or after the encounter... being given the chance to have a scroll to counter the affect once or twice, in advance, is the essence of the old boy scout motto, "Be prepared!"

Very neat idea to base the "process" off the age of the creature.

[Arduin]

Is there a Stone to Flesh spell in C&C? The only thing I'm seeing is the 6th level Transmute Flesh and Stone? Which can work of course.

That spell (Transmute Flesh and Stone) is reversible per the description. Polymorph Any Object will work. I'd also allow Polymorph Other (4th level) to work when used to restore someone.

[Arduin]

This is true, however, it goes back to the "formula". The PCs in this case will have no idea what they are going up against, and honestly, will not always know what they are going up against. That's part of the dangerous nature of the game.

If they are high enough level to be taking on monsters that Petrify, they are high enough level to think about using something like Divination. If they aren't they should get what their foolishness brings them...

[Fiffergrund]

This is true, however, it goes back to the "formula". The PCs in this case will have no idea what they are going up against, and honestly, will not always know what they are going up against. That's part of the dangerous nature of the game.

If they are high enough level to be taking on monsters that Petrify, they are high enough level to think about using something like Divination. If they aren't they should get what their foolishness brings them...

Hard. Core.

It is, and always has been, a game of resource management. EVERY resource.

[Lobo316]

This is true, however, it goes back to the "formula". The PCs in this case will have no idea what they are going up against, and honestly, will not always know what they are going up against. That's part of the dangerous nature of the game.

If they are high enough level to be taking on monsters that Petrify, they are high enough level to think about using something like Divination. If they aren't they should get what their foolishness brings them...

I respect your opinion Arduin (I really do, you have some great input), but on this one, not so sure I agree. Heck, Divination is a 4th level spell. You have to be a 7th cleric to cast it, yet creatures like the Cockatrice are 5hd critters that can turn you to stone (and you can run into multiples of them). Shoot, the classic medusa is a 6hd creature (and there is one in the classic 1-3rd level Keep on the Borderlands).

In other word, you don't have to be "high level" to battle monsters that petrify.

Even if you were, no party can be prepared for everything. Heck, if that's the case, just had the module to them over the screen, lol.

Appreciate the input, but not really on the same page with ya there.

[Arduin]

I respect your opinion Arduin (I really do, you have some great input), but on this one, not so sure I agree. Heck, Divination is a 4th level spell. You have to be a 7th cleric to cast it, yet creatures like the Cockatrice are 5hd critters that can turn you to stone

You are simply equating the HD of a monster directly with the level of a party that should encounter it. There are far more variables than that to consider...

Look at the AD&D <1 HD Leprechaun for example. It can REALLY mess up a party of even mid level if played as per the monsters Int level.

[Lobo316]

This is true, however, it goes back to the "formula". The PCs in this case will have no idea what they are going up against, and honestly, will not always know what they are going up against. That's part of the dangerous nature of the game.

If they are high enough level to be taking on monsters that Petrify, they are high enough level to think about using something like Divination. If they aren't they should get what their foolishness brings them...

Hard. Core.

It is, and always has been, a game of resource management. EVERY resource.

I thought it was about "Role Play" and collaborative story telling? Leave resource management to 4th edition LOL!!

Seriously though, sure, every game has some element of that to it. I'm more in it for the story personally, and the experience of gathering with friends to spin these tales together. But even in real life, there is some "resource management" in just about everything I suppose (still doesn't mean were always prepared for everything life throws at us though).

[Lobo316]

I respect your opinion Arduin (I really do, you have some great input), but on this one, not so sure I agree. Heck, Divination is a 4th level spell. You have to be a 7th cleric to cast it, yet creatures like the Cockatrice are 5hd critters that can turn you to stone

You are simply equating the HD of a monster directly with the level of a party that should encounter it. There are far more variables than that to consider...

True, very true. The HD serve as a "guide line", and that's even mentioned in the CKG on encounter building. But I simply wanted to point out, you don't have to be "high or epic level" to face creatures that can petrify.

[Fiffergrund]

Having been the SOB who throws petrifying creatures around like candy, I always do two things:

1) Fair warning: there are always signs. Lore or rumors, telltale perfect statues, etc.

2) Provide some means of undoing petrification. Spell access, magic items (potions or scrolls).

The small mirror is standard adventuring gear precisely because one can never tell what is right around that corner. Even giving warning like in #1 is a huge gift.

I remember games where if I didn't remember to check the corners in a suspect area, it was my own fault. If my gnome illusionist forgot to prepare Gaze Reflection (1st level spell), that's my fault too.

So, I fall on the side of making petrification instant, and if the statue is broken, it can be fatal.

I like the drama of gradual petrification. If you want it to be drawn out to provide more opportunities to counteract it, but also to bring dramatic tension, that's awesome. I think you should go for it.

With gradual petrification, I would probably not give warning, or I would decrease the XP for the medusa, because she just got a LOT easier to beat. I would still make cures accessible, though. (but not cheap!)

[Lobo316]

I respect your opinion Arduin (I really do, you have some great input), but on this one, not so sure I agree. Heck, Divination is a 4th level spell. You have to be a 7th cleric to cast it, yet creatures like the Cockatrice are 5hd critters that can turn you to stone

You are simply equating the HD of a monster directly with the level of a party that should encounter it. There are far more variables than that to consider...

Look at the AD&D <1 HD Leprechaun for example. It can REALLY mess up a party of even mid level if played as per the monsters Int level.

BTW, I HATE leprechauns!!! Arrgh!

[Lobo316]

Having been the SOB who throws petrifying creatures around like candy, I always do two things:

1) Fair warning: there are always signs. Lore or rumors, telltale perfect statues, etc.

2) Provide some means of undoing petrification. Spell access, magic items (potions or scrolls).

The small mirror is standard adventuring gear precisely because one can never tell what is right around that corner. Even giving warning like in #1 is a huge gift.

I remember games where if I didn't remember to check the corners in a suspect area, it was my own fault. If my gnome illusionist forgot to prepare Gaze Reflection (1st level spell), that's my fault too.

So, I fall on the side of making petrification instant, and if the statue is broken, it can be fatal.

I like the drama of gradual petrification. If you want it to be drawn out to provide more opportunities to counteract it, but also to bring dramatic tension, that's awesome. I think you should go for it.

With gradual petrification, I would probably not give warning, or I would decrease the XP for the medusa, because she just got a LOT easier to beat. I would still make cures accessible, though. (but not cheap!)

Agree with all those points sir!

Thing is, I'm not opposed to "instant" petrification (or instant death...crap happens), I'm just trying to go for a different "feel", you know. In the end, mabye I will go for the instant effect (still deciding) but I'm also looking at increasing that Option A to D6 per round, CON loss. After all, fast CON loss is still better (kinder) than instant petrification, lol.

[Fiffergrund]

I thought it was about "Role Play" and collaborative story telling? Leave resource management to 4th edition LOL!!

Sometimes it isn't the story, but the game. And one aspect of the game is making cost/benefit resource allocation decisions. Picking spells, deciding how many iron rations to buy, bringing the hammer and spikes vs. more flasks of oil, which weapons to carry. All resource allocation, and all of these decisions are crucial when you only have a vague idea what to expect.

Once PCs get to higher levels, their available abilities expand, they gain more power, and there are more avenues available to gain insight and even answers. I think most CKs take these things into account and challenge the PCs accordingly. Raise Dead changes the calculus, as do divinations, teleports, magic weapons, and other perks of gaining levels.

That's all I meant - not "button pushing" game mechanics.

I get that you're trying to mix things up and make things less predictable, which I think is bang-on.

[Arduin]

True, very true. The HD serve as a "guide line", and that's even mentioned in the CKG on encounter building. But I simply wanted to point out, you don't have to be "high or epic level" to face creatures that can petrify.

Of course not. But you think so as you are trying to "soften" that type of creature. SO, you must think that it is too tough. See your OP for more details.

[Lobo316]

I thought it was about "Role Play" and collaborative story telling? Leave resource management to 4th edition LOL!!

Sometimes it isn't the story, but the game. And one aspect of the game is making cost/benefit resource allocation decisions. Picking spells, deciding how many iron rations to buy, bringing the hammer and spikes vs. more flasks of oil, which weapons to carry. All resource allocation, and all of these decisions are crucial when you only have a vague idea what to expect.

Once PCs get to higher levels, their available abilities expand, they gain more power, and there are more avenues available to gain insight and even answers. I think most CKs take these things into account and challenge the PCs accordingly. Raise Dead changes the calculus, as do divinations, teleports, magic weapons, and other perks of gaining levels.

That's all I meant - not "button pushing" game mechanics.

I get that you're trying to mix things up and make things less predictable, which I think is bang-on.

Yea, I'm with ya. And all of those things you said, are indeed part of the game. Most certainly. In fact, with those examples you gave, those are some of the things I've enjoyed the most about my current game. I run a generally "low magic" game and the PCs have had to make some tough calls on what to take with them and what to leave behind. So, yea, most certainly, part of the game and a good one to, from that point of view. Adds a layer of "depth" to the experience when you have tough choices to make.

And there is no raise dead in my current game, btw, which is another reason I'm being a tad careful with instant death effects (though, the petrification thing is different).

[Lobo316]

True, very true. The HD serve as a "guide line", and that's even mentioned in the CKG on encounter building. But I simply wanted to point out, you don't have to be "high or epic level" to face creatures that can petrify.

Of course not. But you think so as you are trying to "soften" that type of creature. SO, you must think that it is too tough. See your OP for more details.

Not so much that its "too tough" but moresoe that I'm trying to find a different way to work the "instant" effect, so that the player has a better chance to stick around, before he has to sit there and watch the rest of the fight/game from the sidelines. Nothing wrong with that.

I also thought about, weather I use option A or B, saying the character can't attack, at all, while he's struggling to fight off the effects that are turning him to stone (instead of giving him attack penalties). But we'll see.