Book of Familiars

[Lobo316]

On page 38, the boar is listed as a "greater familiar", but in the barbarian chapter, on page 50, it's listed as a "typical familiar". Which one is it?

[Treebore]

I'd go with Greater, its HD are more in line with it.

[Lobo316]

More on BoF (bear with me, I'm attempting to really dissect this and coming accross a few things that puzzle me)...

This is the snow leopard as presented in the BoF (p.172)
(Paraphrazed for my stat blocks, but the info is accurate)

Snow Leopard
AC: 16; HD 5(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d6) or bite (1d8)
Special: Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, Scent, Hide, Rend

POUNCE: A snow leopards that leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, makes a full attack (two rakes) even if it has already taken a move action.
IMPROVED GRAB: If a snow leopard hits with a bite, it can rend. If it hits with both claws, it may rake.
REND: A snow leopard that hits with a bite can rend the opponent automatically doing 2d6+6 damage.
RAKE: A snow leopard makes two rake attacks with its hind legs for 1d6+6 damage each. If the snow leopard pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.
SCENT: Snow leopard track by scent and gain a +2 to their die roll when following prey by their smell.
HIDE: Snow leopards hide as a rogue of equivalent hit dice.

This the Lion as presented in M&T, 3rd printing

Lion
AC: 15; HD 4(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4) or bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If I lion hits with a bite attack, it can make two rakes attacks with its hind legs. These additional attacks are at a +3 to hit and inflict 1d4+2 damage. SCENT: Snow leopard track by scent and gain a +2 to their die roll when following prey by their smell.
HIDE: Snow leopards hide as a rogue of equivalent hit dice.

Now, the BoF on page 38 shows the Leopard as having a requirment of 5th level while the Lion has a requirment of 7th level. (as far as obtaining the animal as a companion/familiar is concerned)

Is it me, or does the Leopard just seem "over powered" compared to the lion? The "cat comparison" here just doesn't seem to match up properly. I mean, good grief, look at the end damage. Heck, that's more than what a 6HD grizzly bear does with it's hug each round (1d12).

Now, I don't mind dangerous creatures, but does that just seem out of whack to you, compared to simliar creatures (most notable, the lion)?

[Lord Dynel]

Yeah, that seems little overly-powerful, in my opinion, for a snow leopard.

[Lobo316]

Yeah, that seems little overly-powerful, in my opinion, for a snow leopard.

Yea, I'm thinking that HAS to be errata'd.

[Arduin]

Now, I don't mind dangerous creatures, but does that just seem out of whack to you, compared to simliar creatures (most notable, the lion)?

Stats are WAY incorrect for a Leopard. Change 'Siberian' Tiger (maximum size).

[Lobo316]

Now, I don't mind dangerous creatures, but does that just seem out of whack to you, compared to simliar creatures (most notable, the lion)?

Stats are WAY incorrect for a Leopard. Change 'Siberian' Tiger (maximum size).

I'm looking at the 3rd printing, M&T and check this out...

Lions and tigers don't have scent or hide, let alone REND! Good grief. And the lion and tiger are bigger (large).

And I don't even think these critters need that "hide" ablitiy. Just use the HD of the creature and say it's "hiding" (or moving silently, or whatever). Thats what the SIEGE engine is for.

Yea, I'll be dis-allowing that leopard for sure. Way overpowered.

Snow Leopard
SIZE: M; AC: 14; HD 5(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d6) or bite (1d8)
Special: Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake, Scent, Hide, Rend

POUNCE: A snow leopards that leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, makes a full attack (two rakes) even if it has already taken a move action.
IMPROVED GRAB: If a snow leopard hits with a bite, it can rend. If it hits with both claws, it may rake.
REND: A snow leopard that hits with a bite can rend the opponent automatically doing 2d6+6 damage.
RAKE: A snow leopard makes two rake attacks with its hind legs for 1d6+6 damage each. If the snow leopard pounces on an
opponent, it can also rake.
SCENT: Snow leopard track by scent and gain a +2 to their die roll when following prey by their smell.
HIDE: Snow leopards hide as a rogue of equivalent hit dice.

Lion
SIZE: L; AC: 15; HD 4(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4) or bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If I lion hits with a bite attack, it can make two rakes attacks with its hind legs. These additional attacks are at a +3 to hit and inflict 1d4+2 damage.

Tiger
SIZE: L; AC: 14; HD 5(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4); bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If a tiger successfully bites, it can make two rake attacks with its hind legs. Each attack gains an additional +3 bonus to hit and inflicts 1d4+2 damage.

[Snoring Rock]

Grrrrrr......this is what I meant when I started the brew-hah about inconsistent rules. Now I think twice about this book. And I was getting ready to order.

[Arduin]

Lion
SIZE: L; AC: 15; HD 4(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4) or bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If I lion hits with a bite attack, it can make two rakes attacks with its hind legs. These additional attacks are at a +3 to hit and inflict 1d4+2 damage.

Tiger
SIZE: L; AC: 14; HD 5(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4); bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If a tiger successfully bites, it can make two rake attacks with its hind legs. Each attack gains an additional +3 bonus to hit and inflicts 1d4+2 damage.

Whoever stated these two are clueless as to their ability to deal damage. Both can decapitate a human with one paw/claw. 1D8 should be the damage.

[Lobo316]

Lion
SIZE: L; AC: 15; HD 4(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4) or bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If I lion hits with a bite attack, it can make two rakes attacks with its hind legs. These additional attacks are at a +3 to hit and inflict 1d4+2 damage.

Tiger
SIZE: L; AC: 14; HD 5(d8); HP: MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d4); bite (1d10)
Special: Rake, Twighlight Vision

RAKE: If a tiger successfully bites, it can make two rake attacks with its hind legs. Each attack gains an additional +3 bonus to hit and inflicts 1d4+2 damage.

Whoever stated these two are clueless as to their ability to deal damage. Both can decapitate a human with one paw/claw. 1D8 should be the damage.

Well, this is from third printing M&T. Anyone have the 4th printing handy to confirm if the damage was increased?

[Treebore]

There is a lot in this book that I think ramps up the over all power of already powerful characters a bit too much. So I'm definitely going to be doing a lot of house ruling of pretty much any material I use out of this book. Still, a lot of cool ideas in it, so still not unhappy with buying it, but anyone who prefers books they can use "as is", I think they may be disappointed.

[kreider204]

Well, this is from third printing M&T. Anyone have the 4th printing handy to confirm if the damage was increased?

Aren't we still on the 3rd printing M&T? Or have I lost count? ...

[Lobo316]

Well, this is from third printing M&T. Anyone have the 4th printing handy to confirm if the damage was increased?

Aren't we still on the 3rd printing M&T? Or have I lost count? ...

Heck, I don't recall, lol! I guess I lost count as well...

This is the one I have...(which, btw, has the same damage listed)

[kreider204]

Ya, that's mine too, I believe that's the 3rd and most recent printing. Then again, I haven't bought anything from TLG in a couple of years, so maybe I'm out of the loop!

[Lobo316]

I have to be honest, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to impliment a lot of the material from this new book. It just doesn't seem clear to me (or maybe I'm getting old and have no attention span, lol).

Example, page 85
Druid Familiar Abilities:
Unlike the familiars of other classes, a druid’s familiar gains in both intelligenceand Wisdom. This reflects that a druid’s familiar is not only becoming more and more a part of the druid, but more and more a part of the natural world around them as well.

I'm guessing that means when Druid summons an animal companion at level 1st, and it gets the 1st-2nd level abilites (armor adjustment, Int, Special) listed on table 6-4, then when the Druid gets 3rd level, it picks up the 3rd-4th level abilites, and when the Druid gets 5th level, the companion will pick up those abilites, and so on and so on. Is that correct?

Because on page 24, Summon Familiar (general advantage) states...
As you advance in level in the class associated with the familiar, the familiar also increases in power according to the appropriate Standard Familiar Special Abilities chart (see the individual class descriptions in Chapters 2 thru 12).

So, if that's the case, then how is the Druids familiar "Unlike the familiars of other classes?"

Also, in regards to that Summon Familiar advantage...who "needs" to take it??? Example, I created a level 5 barbarian and selected Craft Totem Familiars (p. 48) to take a greater totem spirit companion. That "cost" me an advantage. So...is that correct? Do I even need to take Summon Familiar (p.24)? I'm guessing no?

And, I'm guessing that since the barbarian "technically" took that advantage at 5th level, his spirit animal companion/familiar will get the ablities listed on table 3-5 up through 4th-5th level (armor adjust, Int, special) but will never get any tougher (moving up table 3-5) since he's not a druid? Or does that familiar get "tougher" with the barbarian (ie, moving up the chart as the barbarian progresses in level)?

The book does not seem to give many examples of this in play.

[Lobo316]

Another thing I found (again, I'm trying to sort through this material to get a feel on how to impliment it properly into the game, but feel free to post question and concerns you may have yourself)

FAMILIAR SPECIAL ABILITIES (page 27)
The special abilities for familiars – standard, greater, and supreme – are listed and described below. Which special abilities a familiar possesses is dependent on the level of its master and the class it is associated with. Note than when selecting a special ability, you can always choose a less powerful ability. For example, if you are choosing a Greater Familiar Special Ability, you can instead choose a Standard Familiar Special Ability if you wish.

OK, i would assume this means that as you progress in level, your animal companion gets all the ablities listed for each level of the "masters" class (EXAMPLE see table 3—4: STANDARD BARBARIAN FAMILIARS).

So, what does it mean in the next part when it reads "when selecting an abilitiy...???". Are you supposed to choose from given abilities at levels where there is more than one ability? If your familiar is a Greater Familiar, can you choose to take lesser Familiar abilties in place of the greater ablities (and how would that work, cuz those don't always make sense).

Again, this is not very clear.

[Treebore]

Someone needs to summon Casey, the rewrite author, to this thread. Unfortunately we are no longer friends on Facebook, or else I would.

[Lobo316]

I'm trying to work through the book, but it's really much more challenging then it should be. Creating characters should be fun, not work. Here's a few I created at level 5. We play with advantages gaining them at 1st (heratige only, except humans, they can select any), 2nd, 4th and every 4 levels after, so take that into account when looking over the following...These look "right" to you guys? Note, items in blue are from BoF...

Class Barbarian Level 5
Race Human
STR 16 +2
DEX 13 +1
CON 16 +2
INT 11 0
WIS 11 0
CHR 12 0

Advantages: Craft Totem Familiar (p. 48; greater; snow leopard), Primal Power, Power Attack
Race/Class Abilities: (1st lvl) Combat Sense, Primal Force, (3rd lvl) Primal Fury
Familiar (greater): Snow Leopard
AC: 16; HD 4 (d8); HP: 20 MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1d6) or bite (1d8)
Special: Rake, TwilighlightVision
Rake: If aleopard successfully bites, it can make two rake attacks, each attack at a +3 bonus to hit and inflicts 1d4+2 damage.
Familiar Abilities: +2 AC (included) Int 7, Combat Sense, empathic link,blood bond, Whirlwind Attack (2 Opponents.)"

**************************
Class Druid, Level 5
Race Human
STR 11 0
DEX 14 +1
CON 14 +1
INT 13 +1
WIS 17 +2
CHR 12 0

Advantages: Animal Companion (does not cost an advantage for the druid, see page 16), Summon Familiar (badger), Defense of the Familiar (p. 17), Empower Familiar (p.18, Detect Evil)
Race/Class Abilities: Nature Lore, Resist Elements, Woodland Stride
Animal Familiar: Badger (converted from AD&D)
AC: 19; HD 1 (d8); HP: 8 MV 40; Saves: P; ATTACKS: 2 claws (1-2) or bite (1-3)
Familiar Abilities: AC+3 (included) Int: 8, Empathic Link, Endure Elements, Nature Sense, Track, Share Spells, Woodland Stride, Speak with Master"

[Bowbe]

Ya know, converting anything from 3.x to anything is a chore. Converting several authors writing and intent is an even greater chore. Nobody ever gets 100% correct INCLUDING Paizo, S&W, Goodman, and Wizards of the Coast to name a few. I know that WOTC's "Final" PHB for 3.5 still had about 6 page errata.

We did the best we could with the tools we have at out disposal. We had several pairs of eyes go over things again and again looking to take care of continuity and clarity. If you find things overpowered, tweak it. If a thing or two got missed, sorry. Like the CKG everything in it is optional. BoF works great for people who have small groups, or groups with players under 40 who have become accustomed to a little more beef with their game system.

Lest we forget AD&D had its own share of errata, "rules arguments", power creep, and above all overpowered pet rocks. (Hirelings, Henchmen, Familiars,Animal Companions) ect. Had it not, there would have been no reason for Dragon Magazine.

I'd say if your campaign doesn't take place in a Himalaya type climate or an Asiatic themed jungle why would there be Tigers or Snow Leopards? Seems to me a lot of a lot about snow leopard.

Reading through the questions you have lobo, it seems like you are reading in order to find problems? If you read any text for that purpose you certainly will find problems. I thought it was pretty clear from the text that "anyone" could take a familiar (using xp or advantage, or whatever) and they can also choose to blow their advantages or xp on other things like a totem as it is a "specialty" to the barbarian class as an optional offering. If I am not reading that right then I don't know what you are asking.

Not having a copy with me, I can say that I believe your critter gains use of some (or all) class abilities as you level up. Or you can expend xp, advantages, ect to get them "more" stuff or "upgrade them" which again I thought was pretty clear in the text but I guess not.

There are lesser and greater abilities for each sort of critter that can be unlocked by expending more xp, or more advantages, and the abilities on those lists may be selected from. Thought that was pretty clear too? It did make it through several sets of editors, so I hope that is what it says, since that is what the intention was.

As for power creep Treebore... lets just say an "Advantage" expended on a familiar, companion or whatever is certainly a powerful thing, but is expended at the cost of something else. Experience doesn't come cheap in games like C&C, OD&D or whatever, so blowing your xp or whatever on stuff for your pets mutes out the character's power in a similar fashion to multi classing. I disagree with your statement that the book cannot be used as is without lots of house ruling on the grounds my friend, that your house rules would fill a bookshelf all to themselves thus folks mileage may vary. I have used the stuff in the book for years with small group affairs and we have had tons of success and great gaming experiences.

[Lobo316]

Thanks for the comments Bowbe. Realize that i am not, as you implied, "reading to find problems". Rather, these are questions that are coming up as i try to work through creating characters using the new features.

My questions are not intended to tear things down, or find holes but rather to get clarification, to make sure i am "getting it right". I think my questions are clearly stated, as they are posted clearly, and with page references.

Understand that i actually like the book and its concepts quiet a bit, but i do think some things could be stated more clearly,

My hope in starting this thread was to share thoughts and interpretations and get feedback and advice. If i did not like the material, i would not bother posting.

I do tend to agree with Tree that much of this will need to be house ruled or modified, but thats not a bad thing. In fact, it's one of these strengths of C&C...it is up to the CK as to what to allow in his game.

And don't get hung up on the leopard example, that's just one thing i ran into while working trough the rules, and yes it raised a few red flags with me, and with good reason. Those stats are out of whack, and i will have players looking at this stuff that may actually want to use something that it turns out is "broken" (lack of a better word). There is no way i'd allow that leopard into my game as a familar. But that's just one example, so don't get hung up on it, a i actually selected that at random just going through thes process.

And if were going to shell out money to support the game, we sure can voice concerns when they come up.

Agian, dont misunderstand my intention. I'm not "looking for holes". I'm seeking community feedback, because thats what these forums are for.

Overall, i like the book and the options and potential it brings. Its a very fresh and original approach to a feature that's been around since OD&D, and that in itself is an accomplishment in todays retro fantasy gaming landscape.

[Bowbe]

I hear ya. Like I said we may have missed a couple here and there. C&C for example doesn't have "dires" so no doubt the "Barbarian" boar was supposed to be a "dire" version from the original manuscript, which would make it "greater". Again, things like that happen when converting from an uber game system like 3x/pathfinder to C&C or AD&D or whatever.

I give the example of when the powers that be at WOTC deigned to give the 3rd party developers a "peek" at 3.5 it was noted (by me) that rogues did way too much damage when compared to the "fighting" classes because they gained astronomical "to hit" bonuses when flanking or from behind, then added piles of dice to their damage roll when also flanking or from behind. I was summarily told to shut my trap by Bill Slavicek. Of course I went on to point out that allowing one point of damage per level of character when taking one point off attack bonus and also adding 1.5 (or more) strength bonus to damage when using a power attack with a two handed weapon could prove to be catastrophic. I was then told to shut my pie hole by my boss at the time. So there you go.

Rules are hard to polish to everyone's satisfaction. Sorry we missed a couple things.

C.

[Treebore]

My house rules are only about 15 pages, when single spaced and at a nice sized font for me to read without my glasses. Omote has far more house rules than I do once you combine all his PDF's together. I am not sure how much I am going to have to house rule once it comes time for me to use this, which will be a while, because I never introduce major new rules systems in the middle of a campaign. I just know I don't like what I saw during my read through. Maybe once I read carefully and really think about what the trade offs are, I might agree and use it largely as is. I just know with the read through I have done I do not like the "power ups" I see. Kind of like the problems many had with Of Gods and Monsters. Still, I do like the new ideas, twists on old ideas, etc... just right now I don't see me using things close to "as is", or I might, and just make the costs a bit higher. Again, I won't really know until my current campaigns wrap up and I take a hard look at this and the new Runelord for inclusion in my next campaigns. Still, I am not saying the book is "bad", I do like a lot of what I see, I simply have too many questions to answer until I will know just how much I like it, as well as how much I will use of it.

[Bowbe]

Just pulling your twigs Tree. You've had some pretty interesting house rules threads on here for a long time. As with all our non-core products all rules are optional and their use is at the whim and will of the GM. As it was meant to be!

[BoomerET]

You want to see a nightmare of errata, check out the 10 pages of small print for Traveller 5, and that's all text, no graphics.

It's pure torture.

[Arduin]

You want to see a nightmare of errata, check out the 10 pages of small print for Traveller 5, and that's all text, no graphics.

It's pure torture.

Marc still trying to market that hunk of junk?

[Captain_K]

A snow leopard, although super cool, adapted for a unique niche, and one of the most beautiful cats is only about an 80# cat. I would not make it mad, but relative to a male AFRICAN lion (400#) or Siberian tiger (500 for male and 260#) (with 1" long fangs) they should have many fewer HD and less damage. But its just a book, edit it as you feel fits or makes sense... could the higher power be that it is "special" as a familiar/companion?

Aside: Snow leopards are the least likely of bigger cats to attack humans, but they are capable ambush hunters bringing down game 3 to 4 times their size using their "down slope" charge to help.... so hide makes sense and all cats should or should not have scent as a family and all cats that bring down larger prey (aka most all) likely should have rake; in my biological opinion.

ALL books and source material do need editing or checking, its so hard to get it right and even when you're right not all will agree or appreciate, so take it all with a shovel or two of road salt... especially my input ;}

My comments aside, could each of you comment on the "value of the book"? A simple "It is (or is not) worth getting, I give it an X" where the X is a simple letter grade. I have a Gnome Druid who "wants a tiger".. OK, he's got a badger for now at 1st level, but I'm sure he wants a tiger, I'm hoping to keep him happy with a badger or at most a wolverine (glutton) - not a lot of tigers in England thankfully. I'm going to suggest he get it, but I don't want to create any "PC monsters" who want personal monsters to come with them everywhere.

[Lobo316]

Here's a question to add to the list (and maybe this one's obvious, but just to be sure). All of the charts (well, most, the fighter may be different) but all of the progression charts seem to list the following:

Master Class Level
Natural Armor Adj
Int/Wis
Special

Each of the Master Class columns has a varying "range", depending on the class (that is, when the animal companion increases in power).

My question...does the famliiars HD increase with each of these levels?

[Lobo316]

A snow leopard, although super cool, adapted for a unique niche, and one of the most beautiful cats is only about an 80# cat. I would not make it mad, but relative to a male AFRICAN lion (400#) or Siberian tiger (500 for male and 260#) (with 1" long fangs) they should have many fewer HD and less damage. But its just a book, edit it as you feel fits or makes sense... could the higher power be that it is "special" as a familiar/companion?

Aside: Snow leopards are the least likely of bigger cats to attack humans, but they are capable ambush hunters bringing down game 3 to 4 times their size using their "down slope" charge to help.... so hide makes sense and all cats should or should not have scent as a family and all cats that bring down larger prey (aka most all) likely should have rake; in my biological opinion.

ALL books and source material do need editing or checking, its so hard to get it right and even when you're right not all will agree or appreciate, so take it all with a shovel or two of road salt... especially my input ;}

My comments aside, could each of you comment on the "value of the book"? A simple "It is (or is not) worth getting, I give it an X" where the X is a simple letter grade. I have a Gnome Druid who "wants a tiger".. OK, he's got a badger for now at 1st level, but I'm sure he wants a tiger, I'm hoping to keep him happy with a badger or at most a wolverine (glutton) - not a lot of tigers in England thankfully. I'm going to suggest he get it, but I don't want to create any "PC monsters" who want personal monsters to come with them everywhere.

Tough call Cap. I want to like this book, a lot, but it does seem to be kinda tricky to pick up and impliment easily. A lot of selections lead to question and it "could" get out of hand qucikly. A lot depends upon the game in question, the power level, that is.

Overall, I'd give it a strong B, just for the originality and freshness it brings. There are a TON of cool ideas in here, just a matter of sorting though how you want to impliment it in your game.

[TheMetal1]

Just got the BoM in today (along with dice, Upon the Powder River, and Bluffside). Spent an hour or so reading various parts of the book and am really digging what I'm reading. I will likely implement this in the next few gaming sessions (along with runes) just to try it out. Lots of potential here and looking forward to trying it out.

In that short-time though I've seen plenty of typos and formatting issues, which is unfortunate. This book has been a long time coming and I think it could be a serious contender for this years ENies or top RPG Supplement award. My hope is that those issues don't distract from the over all concept and value of this book.

[Treebore]

Considering how many typoes, etc... I have seen in ENnie winning books, it shouldn't be a problem.