Shields

[Captain_K]

PH p41 Shields, as is typical, shields are worth 1 pt of AC bonus, yet Pavis is 6 and cover rules are clear % body blocked and give corresponding AC bonus. Actively hiding behind a large metal shield is IMO equivalent to 1/4 to 1/2 cover a +2 to +4... I know the bigger the shield the more people the +1 is good against... but it seems the bigger the shield the more it stops.. Heck I'd take a shield over leather armor and in an active fight - I think the shield would be a better "armor" and stop more blows...

I would think all shields are at least +2 to AC AND if used for defense only (no attacking) could add additionally, similar to cover, which I think is the idea behind the Pavis.

Possibly as simple as +1 for buckler, +2 for small, +3 for med and +4 for large.. but now ACs start to get out of whack... thoughts?

[Arduin]

A Pavis is vs. missile fire I believe? That's the way I rule it anyway. I'd allow the large shield the way you say only vs. long range missile fire from a single compass point. And only for metal ones. In melee an opponent can slip by your shield with an attack. Not so much go through it. Thus, that leather armor affords more protection from that kind of combat. At least my fencing experience showed that to me a bit...

[Traveller]

The Pavis is used in siege warfare, out in the open. In fact, the note for the Pavis is specific in that it functions like a mobile wall. This means the bottom of the Pavis is driven into the ground so it can stand on its own. It also provides near-total cover for the person using it, thus the large bonus and the fact it applies to all foes in front of it. It's also something you do not take into a dungeon as it is seriously encumbering at 90 pounds and EV12, compared to 10 pounds and EV4 for the largest shield.

Regarding shields, in game terms having the shield apply to X foes based upon its size is sound, but the assumption made in this thread that the bigger a shield is the more it stops is flawed. The size of the shield actually determines the type of attack you're trying to stop. At the large end you have the Pavis and large shield for stopping missle fire, though as previously mentioned, the Pavis is used in siege warfare. At the small end you have the Buckler and small shield for stopping sword strikes. In the middle is the medium shield which can be used for both but doesn't do so well at either. So if you want to defend against sword strikes you want a Buckler or small shield as it affects movement the least. You want a large shield if you want to remain mobile but be able to stop missile fire. If you're looking for a balanced defense, get a medium shield.

One other thing to keep in mind regarding shields. As the materials that made up armor improved from basic leather to plate armor, the size of the shield decreased until by the end of the age of armor, warriors - if they used a shield at all - used a Buckler shield. In the real world, seeing someone wearing a suit of full plate with a large shield is an anachronism, but perfectly acceptable in a fantasy world.

[Arduin]

One other thing to keep in mind regarding shields. As the materials that made up armor improved from basic leather to plate armor, the size of the shield decreased until by the end of the age of armor, warriors - if they used a shield at all - used a Buckler shield. In the real world, seeing someone wearing a suit of full plate with a large shield is an anachronism, but perfectly acceptable in a fantasy world.

Correct. If you look at my icon you'll see the pinnacle of foot combat full plate armour. The weapons used were mostly two handed. The one pictured was Henry VIII's armour crafted for a tourney where he was going up against the King of France in the Foot List. The rules were changed at the last minute so he didn't end up using this particular suit. Fast forward ~400 years and NASA was studying the same suit when designing the space suits to be worn by the Apollo Moon landing crew...

[Traveller]

I've known about that suit of armor for years. The joints are so finely made you can barely stick a pin between them. The Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles is good for something.

[Arduin]

I've known about that suit of armor for years. The joints are so finely made you can barely stick a pin between them. The Compendium of Weapons, Armor and Castles is good for something.

Yep. Studied it in medieval history class decades ago and have seen it up close a couple of times in London. In my game it is gives +10 AC adjustment and is only made by dwarves at a very high price indeed.

[Lobo316]

On the subject of game mechanics, I'd stick to the RAW here. Giving shields higher bonuses to AC is simply going to lend itself to "stat building" (arms races sort of mentality). Every sword and board fighter will simply want the largest shield possible, for the highest AC possible, which is sound thinking, mathmatically, so who could blame 'em ;o).

I think the way C&C handles it is pretty elegant actually. It avoids the direct "number stacking", but still gives a boon to the larger shields. Might not be the most realistic, but it works more than well enough.

And, as has been eluded to already, you can always modify this depending on the circumstance. I recently ran the players against a series of traps that fired darts/arrows from walls, as well as a hallway that filled with fire from a fire-trapped false door <evil grin>. Anyhow, in regards to saves, I granted a bonus to the savnig throws (or AC, depending on the situation) based on the shield size (assuming they had the shield "readied").

[Fizz]

I use a shield-as-cover system myself. It works out well. But note that i use a pretty gritty system where charaters have limited hit points, and armor doesn't make you harder to hit (it reduces damage). So in this system having a good way to defend oneself is more important than RAW.

The other thing to remember is that if you have cover from one foe, another foe might have a clear shot. So anyone using a shield has to decide how to divvy up their defense. Is he keeping the shield trained on one foe, or is he trying to block from multiple directions? If the former, a medium shield can give a +4 defensive bonus from that one foe only. But if they have to split it across two attackers, it's +2 from each.


-Fizz

[ThrorII]

I've adjusted the rules so that small shields (bucklers) give a +1 AC to all opponents. Medium shields (kite shields, Viking round shields, etc) give a +2 AC to all opponents. Large shields (pavis, knight's full shield, etc) give a +3 bonus to each opponent.

That gives the players real choices: 2H weapon or higher AC? More encumbrance or lower AC? Shields were important, and I want to keep them important.

Also, we hate tracking if you've used your shield already in combat rounds....