Been thinking about Cantrips...

[Arduin]

Thinking about loosening the rules a bit so that MU's almost always have even some small, real magic they can do.

Any house rules out there that have been in use for a while along this line?

[docdoom77]

What do you mean by "real magic?"

As far as I'm concerned, cantrips (0th level spells) should be unlimited per day anyway. They don't do anything that is overpowering, no matter how many times you cast them. One less thing to keep track of.

Actually, I like ray of frost and the like from 3rd edition. Having a wimpy, reusable blast makes wizards feel a bit more "wizardy" to me.

[Rigon]

I don't require casters to memorize o-level spells, but can still only cast a limited number based on their spells per day chart. It's seemed to work out pretty well.

R-

[Arduin]

What do you mean by "real magic?"

Badly worded due to being too early

As far as I'm concerned, cantrips (0th level spells) should be unlimited per day anyway. They don't do anything that is overpowering, no matter how many times you cast them. One less thing to keep track of.

Actually, I like ray of frost and the like from 3rd edition. Having a wimpy, reusable blast makes wizards feel a bit more "wizardy" to me.

Ok. Your last sentence is the essence of what I was trying (poorly) to convey. So, once a round. That would be pretty cool.

Thanks.

[Arduin]

I don't require casters to memorize o-level spells, but can still only cast a limited number based on their spells per day chart. It's seemed to work out pretty well.

R-

I like the no memorization part but, want it more "on demand" for the flavor of arcane magic in my world. Perhaps I'll add the requirement of a fairly expensive "wand" in order to tap into the extra casting. So that there IS a way to disarm a wizard...

[Lobo316]

I do something very similar to Rigon...

Common Magic:
Common magic are spells practiced by all wizards and illusionists. They consist of simple spells and cantrips. They are fundamental, relatively easy to cast spells that are the building blocks for all other spells. Identify, read magic and all cantrips (0 level spells) are "Common Magic" known by all wizards & illusionists.

Wizards and Illusionists need never memorize identify or read magic and may always sacrifice a memorized first level spell to cast them (like spontanous casting), while cantrips never need to be memorized and may be cast up to the allowed spells per day.

Common Magic does not apply to clerics, bards, sorcerers or other casters.

[Arduin]

I do something very similar to Rigon...

Common Magic:
Common magic are spells practiced by all wizards and illusionists. They consist of simple spells and cantrips. They are fundamental, relatively easy to cast spells that are the building blocks for all other spells. Identify, read magic and all cantrips (0 level spells) are "Common Magic" known by all wizards & illusionists.

Wizards and Illusionists need never memorize identify or read magic and may always sacrifice a memorized first level spell to cast them (like spontanous casting), while cantrips never need to be memorized and may be cast up to the allowed spells per day.

Common Magic does not apply to clerics, bards, sorcerers or other casters.

Do you combine the 2 Cantrip spell lists? I like the Read Magic/ID rule. That seems a real basic for the classes in question.

[Rigon]

I do something very similar to Rigon...

Common Magic:
Common magic are spells practiced by all wizards and illusionists. They consist of simple spells and cantrips. They are fundamental, relatively easy to cast spells that are the building blocks for all other spells. Identify, read magic and all cantrips (0 level spells) are "Common Magic" known by all wizards & illusionists.

Wizards and Illusionists need never memorize identify or read magic and may always sacrifice a memorized first level spell to cast them (like spontanous casting), while cantrips never need to be memorized and may be cast up to the allowed spells per day.

Common Magic does not apply to clerics, bards, sorcerers or other casters.

I like that take Lobo. I let wizards and sorcerers use read magic a number of times per day equal to their Int mod without casting it. I never thought about including identify (mainly because it has a gp cost with casting), but I may have to reconsider. I've also thought about including something like Tree's arcane/divine blast.

R-

[Excillion]

If you look at the advantages in the CKG, it has a magic user advantage called Apprentice Bolt that gives casters a little something to do each round, or you could give them a number of uses a day.

[Arduin]

If you look at the advantages in the CKG, it has a magic user advantage called Apprentice Bolt that gives casters a little something to do each round, or you could give them a number of uses a day.

I'm not focusing on combat as much as just magic and the "feel" of arcane classes.

[Lobo316]

I do something very similar to Rigon...

Common Magic:
Common magic are spells practiced by all wizards and illusionists. They consist of simple spells and cantrips. They are fundamental, relatively easy to cast spells that are the building blocks for all other spells. Identify, read magic and all cantrips (0 level spells) are "Common Magic" known by all wizards & illusionists.

Wizards and Illusionists need never memorize identify or read magic and may always sacrifice a memorized first level spell to cast them (like spontanous casting), while cantrips never need to be memorized and may be cast up to the allowed spells per day.

Common Magic does not apply to clerics, bards, sorcerers or other casters.

Do you combine the 2 Cantrip spell lists? I like the Read Magic/ID rule. That seems a real basic for the classes in question.

I don't combine them, no.

[Lobo316]

I do something very similar to Rigon...

Common Magic:
Common magic are spells practiced by all wizards and illusionists. They consist of simple spells and cantrips. They are fundamental, relatively easy to cast spells that are the building blocks for all other spells. Identify, read magic and all cantrips (0 level spells) are "Common Magic" known by all wizards & illusionists.

Wizards and Illusionists need never memorize identify or read magic and may always sacrifice a memorized first level spell to cast them (like spontanous casting), while cantrips never need to be memorized and may be cast up to the allowed spells per day.

Common Magic does not apply to clerics, bards, sorcerers or other casters.

I like that take Lobo. I let wizards and sorcerers use read magic a number of times per day equal to their Int mod without casting it. I never thought about including identify (mainly because it has a gp cost with casting), but I may have to reconsider. I've also thought about including something like Tree's arcane/divine blast.

R-

Thanks. I've done magic in AD&D very simliar to this for some time and think I took some inspiration on how I do it now (in C&C) from someone out on these forms, heh, heh. Omote perhaps?

[docdoom77]

I'm allowing unlimited castings of cantrips and I use the optional spell slot system, so pretty much any cantrip you know at any time. Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

[Lobo316]

Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

Hmmm....I had not thought of that, but that might not be a bad idea either.

The more I think about this, the more I think I'll do this. Move Read Magic down to the 0 level spell list.

[docdoom77]

I'm allowing unlimited castings of cantrips and I use the optional spell slot system, so pretty much any cantrip you know at any time. Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

Hmmm....I had not thought of that, but that might not be a bad idea either.

It's not better or worse, but in my mind, those spells are pretty trivial as far as actual game effects, but being able to use them whenever you want helps reproduce fictional wizardry without unbalancing the game. In books, wizard types are always doing detect magic/prestidigitation/light/etc without any real effort or limits. If it helps my players feel cool without unbalancing things; I'm all for it.

[Arduin]

I'm allowing unlimited castings of cantrips and I use the optional spell slot system, so pretty much any cantrip you know at any time. Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

Wasn't Read Magic 0 level in 3.x? I like that.

[Arduin]

Do you combine the 2 Cantrip spell lists? I like the Read Magic/ID rule. That seems a real basic for the classes in question.

I don't combine them, no.

Okay. No need to.

[docdoom77]

I'm allowing unlimited castings of cantrips and I use the optional spell slot system, so pretty much any cantrip you know at any time. Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

Wasn't Read Magic 0 level in 3.x? I like that.

Yeah. It is. I was surprised when I picked up C&C that they used Cantrips. Pleasantly surprised as they are one of the good things about 3.X. I was more surprised to see read magic not on the Cantrip list. I can't see an adventuring Wizard memorizing it over magic missile, charm, or the like. It would just sit in the spell book until there is down time. Nothing wrong with that, but not my style.

[Arduin]

I'm allowing unlimited castings of cantrips and I use the optional spell slot system, so pretty much any cantrip you know at any time. Further, I'm moving read magic down to the 0th level slot. I just don't see any of these spells disrupting my game, no matter how often you can cast them.

Wasn't Read Magic 0 level in 3.x? I like that.

Yeah. It is. I was surprised when I picked up C&C that they used Cantrips. Pleasantly surprised as they are one of the good things about 3.X. I was more surprised to see read magic not on the Cantrip list. I can't see an adventuring Wizard memorizing it over magic missile, charm, or the like. It would just sit in the spell book until there is down time. Nothing wrong with that, but not my style.

Not only that but, it would be a needed skill/ability/spell in order to learn spells, use spell books and the like. Probably be the 1st thing learned spell wise. Spell Use 100.

[Captain_K]

If Arcane casters get Zero level spells without memorization or limits (as suggesting), why not the Cleric/Druid doing the same? Just to bring this full circle, the comments are great.

I think I must agree, open the flood gates, let them do all zero level stuff 1/rd and more or less at will and see if a) it gets annoying and slows the game down or b) starts to over power or change things. Mages start with so little, walking about being magical on a low level is nice and removes one whole level of "memorize, write down, track.." . See how it works.. report back to the thread or those doing it give more examples of classic problems (if any)? You could even do it for one night of gaming with something like a "potion of magical greatness" or a wand with 100 charges.. you've set a time/use limit for your experiment not fundamentally changed your rules until you're sure you like it.

[Rigon]

If Arcane casters get Zero level spells without memorization or limits (as suggesting), why not the Cleric/Druid doing the same? Just to bring this full circle, the comments are great.

I allow any caster to cast "minor magics" (o-level spells) without memorization, but only a number of times per day as indicated on their repescted charts.

R-

[docdoom77]

If Arcane casters get Zero level spells without memorization or limits (as suggesting), why not the Cleric/Druid doing the same? Just to bring this full circle, the comments are great.

I think I must agree, open the flood gates, let them do all zero level stuff 1/rd and more or less at will and see if a) it gets annoying and slows the game down or b) starts to over power or change things. Mages start with so little, walking about being magical on a low level is nice and removes one whole level of "memorize, write down, track.." . See how it works.. report back to the thread or those doing it give more examples of classic problems (if any)? You could even do it for one night of gaming with something like a "potion of magical greatness" or a wand with 100 charges.. you've set a time/use limit for your experiment not fundamentally changed your rules until you're sure you like it.

I do allow clerics and druids the same option in my games. It's pretty difficult to abuse those cantrips in my mind.

[Dead Horse]

I allow all four casting classes unlimited cantrips a day. with the caveot of you can not abuse it. ( like casting create water for hours to drown out something etc.. in 3 years of play with my current group i have never had to tell a caster they were abusing cantrips.

[Arduin]

I think that I'll make it unlimited per turn (1 minute). Haven't seen a prob with Divine casters needing "enhanced flavor" so will keep it for arcane guys only, for now.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[Lobo316]

If Arcane casters get Zero level spells without memorization or limits (as suggesting), why not the Cleric/Druid doing the same? Just to bring this full circle, the comments are great.

I think I must agree, open the flood gates, let them do all zero level stuff 1/rd and more or less at will and see if a) it gets annoying and slows the game down or b) starts to over power or change things. Mages start with so little, walking about being magical on a low level is nice and removes one whole level of "memorize, write down, track.." . See how it works.. report back to the thread or those doing it give more examples of classic problems (if any)? You could even do it for one night of gaming with something like a "potion of magical greatness" or a wand with 100 charges.. you've set a time/use limit for your experiment not fundamentally changed your rules until you're sure you like it.

I still use the "per day limits" I just don't require wizards/illusionist to have to mem 0 level spells. I still like the idea that a mage can "wear himself out" (and not be able to cast a thing).

And I only do this for Wizards/Illusionist because of the nature of the classes. It helps to reflect the magic driven focus of the classes. It's what they do, and they've studied hard for it. I don't allow this for sorcerers, because sorcerers (if you're playing with that class) get this naturally. They didn't have to work for it like the wizard or illusionist and thus is some ways, didn't develop the same discipline as mages (in otherwords, I find it a useful/elegant tool to further distinguish the wizards/illusionist from the sorcerer).

I don't allow it for any other spell casting classes for the same reason, spell casting for them is a different "experience" than the wizard or illusionist.

This is my preferance of course, and allowing limitless 0 level spells could be interesting in setting a unique tone or feel for a particular CK's world or GMing style.

[Arduin]

If Arcane casters get Zero level spells without memorization or limits (as suggesting), why not the Cleric/Druid doing the same? Just to bring this full circle, the comments are great.

For my game world it is because the difference in who can be what "class". Anyone with enough faith/commitment has the potential to be a Divine caster. The "Gods" can give that power to who they will. And, that power is strictly "metered".

Arcane casting requires that the individual be born with an innate ability to manipulate magic before they can even attempt to learn casting. >99% of people (PC races) don't have that capability.

[Traveller]

Like Lobo, I still use the "per day" limitations. However, I don't require my casters to memorize any of their spells or use somatic and material components in their casting. They naturally need to speak to cast spells, and the "incantation" is the spell's name. For flavor, put it into Latin.

Of course, the spellcasters must concentrate for the entire round the spell is cast in order for it to take effect. This includes cantrips/orisons. Better hope the fighters are good enough to watch the spellcaster's back.

[Arduin]

Of course, the spellcasters must concentrate for the entire round the spell is cast in order for it to take effect. This includes cantrips/orisons. Better hope the fighters are good enough to watch the spellcaster's back.

I too have that caveat. A single point of damage in my game during the casting round ruins the spell. No concentration check allowed.

[Traveller]

I do allow the caster to change targets or avoid losing the spell, provided they successfully make a CON check at CL7. Of course, being in the middle of combat it's difficult to do either, and intentionally so. However, I believe it to be a fair trade for having to concentrate and not move while spell casting.

[Arduin]

I do allow the caster to change targets or avoid losing the spell, provided they successfully make a CON check at CL7. Of course, being in the middle of combat it's difficult to do either, and intentionally so. However, I believe it to be a fair trade for having to concentrate and not move while spell casting.

Good reason for Casters to have Con as a Prime!