Entangle Spell

[TheMetal1]

So, had a session on Sunday of C&C. We're journey up to Botkinburg to start the A-series but are on a weird improv tangent in a swamp hunting down some Gobos who ambushed the PCs and earlier ambushed another group with a Lady enroute to her wedding.

Anyway, I decided to utilize the Moat House from TOEE as the Gobo base - pretty much as is, but instead of the bandits it'll be Goblins.

The group scouted up and came to the moat/river on the west side (south side is where the moat bridge is and the road). I'm using the WOTC Dungeon Tiles and Paizo River Flipmap the tiles show a fallen log but submerged. Not seeing an easy way across in late autumn with horses and a pony, for some reason they decide to cast Entangle, causing all the plants - cattails, swamp grass, etc, would hold fast and rigid the players that entered the area. If they made their DEX save, they make it across with horses. If they failed, they're trapped, but a strength check will allow them to break free next turn. Here is the spell for reference:

ENTANGLE
This spell animates all plants in the affected area, causing them to attempt to
intertwine about and entangle any creature within, or moving through, their
location, holding them fast. A successful dexterity save means that the creature
manages to avoid becoming entangled for that particular round. An entangled
creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack, a -4 penalty to effective dexterity, and cannot
move, making the casting of spells with a somatic component impossible. Breaking
free requires a successful strength check. Each round, the plants once again
attempt to entangle all creatures who have avoided or escaped entanglement.
Area of effect is a 50’ diameter circle.

It was creative thinking on the part of the newest player (C&C is the first RPG Game he's ever played). He just rolled up a Druid and thought it might work. Anyway, yeah I allowed it, and of course mid-crossing the Giant Frogs from the TOEE Moat house came calling. The Frogs nearly took out the party's Assassin, but they all made it across.

So, with all that in mind, what d you all think of the "Bridge" idea with Entangle?

[alcyone]

Oh, I'd probably not let them use it that way. The spell is meant to hinder you, not help you; the plants are still trying to grab you.

I'd probably allow Warp Wood or Shape Stone or Wood on the log.

[Arduin]

So, with all that in mind, what d you all think of the "Bridge" idea with Entangle?

Wouldn't work. The players can't move horizontally (movement rate) but they would sink straight down. Would be the same as trying to walk on top of bushes 5' off the ground that have Entangle cast on them...

[dachda]

I think it is simply commanding the plants to entangle with each other rather than with other creatures passing by them. So I would have allowed the bridge idea but with a siege check vs wisdom, to see if the druid could adjust the spell to operate differently. A success would cause the plants to wrap around each other creating the bridge, a failure would mean the spell operated as written.

[docdoom77]

I think it is simply commanding the plants to entangle with each other rather than with other creatures passing by them. So I would have allowed the bridge idea but with a siege check vs wisdom, to see if the druid could adjust the spell to operate differently. A success would cause the plants to wrap around each other creating the bridge, a failure would mean the spell operated as written.

Nice one. I like it. It's the kind of things fictional magic users do all the time, so I'd allow this.

[Fiffergrund]

It is creative, but I wouldn't allow it.

First, how do the plants hold PCs and horses above the water?

Second, when the PCs/horses make their saves to break free, why aren't they falling straight into the water?

Third, I'm all about creative usage of spells, but this is really a new spell called "plant bridge" or something.

So, what I'd do is allow the druid a chance to pull off an alteration to the Entangle spell, burning the spell slot. If it works, druid now has a new spell he can pray for. If not, he at least knows it is possible and can practice and do some research.

[alcyone]

So, what I'd do is allow the druid a chance to pull off an alteration to the Entangle spell, burning the spell slot. If it works, druid now has a new spell he can pray for. If not, he at least knows it is possible and can practice and do some research.

Indeed, where did the original D&D spell list come from? How come only players in the 1970s got to invent new spells?

[Arduin]

Indeed, where did the original D&D spell list come from? How come only players in the 1970s got to invent new spells?

??? The rules allow for researching new spells. Ya just don't do it in 10 seconds while casting...

[Captain_K]

Never squash creativity, especially "new person" first try stuff, bend or "entangle" the rules as you need, possibly "one time only gift of the gods".. but reward and permit more then stop while still holding balance and fairness is not easy. Do some spell research "research" and work with the player to stay creative and inventive within some agreed upon frame work.

[alcyone]

some agreed upon frame work.

My agreed upon framework is the PHB .

[Aramis]

As others have stated, my reading of the spell is "grabby" rather than "control plants". However, encouraging creative spell casting by being overly liberal in one's interpretations now and then is a good thing. Especially with new players

I have often wondered how to make D&D spellcasting work more creatively. So instead of having spells of specific effects, one would be capable of "level one telekinesis" or "level 2 fire mastery", and the player would individually describe each effect as they attempt to create them. Perhaps each time with a SIEGE check based on the difficulty, with a failed roll meaning the spell is lost (maybe a really bad roll backfires on you!)

The problem of course is such a system would bog down with interpretations and precedent arguments (why did a level 3 fire spell do such and such but now you won't let me do blah blah with a level 4 air spell, and so on). Balance would go right out the window as well probably, but magic would become something very dangerous and unpredictable again

[Treebore]

I think it is simply commanding the plants to entangle with each other rather than with other creatures passing by them. So I would have allowed the bridge idea but with a siege check vs wisdom, to see if the druid could adjust the spell to operate differently. A success would cause the plants to wrap around each other creating the bridge, a failure would mean the spell operated as written.

Yep, my house rules have always allowed for this, but in what? 8 years? All my players have pretty much stuck to 3E Feat like alterations to their spells, but they could also try to do this.

[Shadowslayer]

Yeah I'd consider it a possible new spell. As far as using Entangle that way, its a stretch. Nothing wrong with it if everyone's having fun, but I'd tell the player "Ok it works this time, but subject to review later" Later, run it under the magnifying glass for potential abuse, then decide if I'd allow it a second time, or treat it as a new spell.

I'm just thinking that reeds and lilypads forming a bridge sturdy enough to hold horses and such is almost out of the realm of a 1st level spell?

[TheMetal1]

Thank you everyone for the replies, good discussion. I typically wouldn't do this for everyone, and in or Friday night game (we normally meet then, but have done a few Sunday's) I'll do a recap of the event and discuss it there.

Realize to it did act as an Entangle spell as they crossed and If I had unleashed the other 3 giant frogs, I think I might have seen a TPK as everyone raced back and forth getting entangled.

I'll probably go with something like a SIEGE check for WIS in the future when something comes up that deviates a bit from a standard interpretation of the spell.