The C&C RPG was not specifically tailored to the Lord of the Rings Novels, but C&C can provide interesting character options in simulating many of the abilities exhibited by key Characters in the novels. Below I depict Gandalf the “Gray” and although this interpretation is by no means exact or the best method to convert LotR’s Character to C&C; this interpretation can perform just about all the functions Gandalf performed in the LotR’s Novels.
Character Class: Class and a half, Bard 12 and Wizard 6
Primes: INT, WIS, & CHA
Abilities:
STR: 14
CON: 14
DEX: 14
INT: 18
WIS: 18
CHA: 18
Spells Known:
0 -- Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance
1st -- Burning Hands, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Hold Portal, Mage Armor, Ventriloquism
2nd -- Charm Person or Animal, Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock, Shatter
3rd -- Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt
JLL
Gandalf Revisited:
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
How do you bring his racial modifiers into it? He was not a human, by any stretch. Plus a write up of his "Sacred Flame" is needed.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
He was more of an outsider. Something like an "angel". He was sent to Middle Earth to help Good and was immortal. Pretty much impossible to stat as a PC. Unless one is playing Basic D&D Immortal levels.Treebore wrote:How do you bring his racial modifiers into it? He was not a human, by any stretch. Plus a write up of his "Sacred Flame" is needed.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Yeah, definitely not PC material, but he can still definitely be given stats as an NPC type.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
When you say "sacred flame," are you referring to the flame of arnor? The secret fire?Treebore wrote:How do you bring his racial modifiers into it? He was not a human, by any stretch. Plus a write up of his "Sacred Flame" is needed.
I always thought he was referring to Narya, the ring of fire, though not everyone agrees with that interpretation.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Yeah, whatever the power was that he actually used against the likes of the Balrog, etc...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
For sure. I would start with stuff from an Outsider template and work from there.Treebore wrote:Yeah, definitely not PC material, but he can still definitely be given stats as an NPC type.
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lobocastle
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Re: Gandalf Revisited:
I used both class abilities and ability scores to represent Istari abilities. As far as I am concerned the representation of Gandalf would serve well as an NPC to guide a party in a Middle Earth setting. As far as killing the Balrog goes Bill Seligman who wrote "Gandalf was a 5th Level Magic User," that lightning bolts were used. I do not think Gandalf would be a PC nor do I think Gandalf was ever first level even when he first came to Middle Earth.
JLL
JLL
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
He's certainly not 5th-level. Though Gandalf might have appeared the part of the simple wizard, he was anything but. Especially given the fact the Istari were forbidden from dominating the free people of Middle-earth and were not to match Sauron's power with their own.
Bill Seligman's analysis only focuses on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Since it was written prior to the publication of The Silmarillion and the remainder of Tolkein's writings regarding Middle-earth, it naturally doesn't include any of that information. It's woefully out of date, and using it as the basis of a character writeup is unsound.
Since the Istari are Maiar in human form, their writeups need to reflect their true power level rather than the apparent level.
Bill Seligman's analysis only focuses on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Since it was written prior to the publication of The Silmarillion and the remainder of Tolkein's writings regarding Middle-earth, it naturally doesn't include any of that information. It's woefully out of date, and using it as the basis of a character writeup is unsound.
Since the Istari are Maiar in human form, their writeups need to reflect their true power level rather than the apparent level.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Why a Bard?
To defend: This is the Pact.
But when life loses its value,
and is taken for naught -
then the Pact is to Avenge.
But when life loses its value,
and is taken for naught -
then the Pact is to Avenge.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Probably because he liked performing and telling stories, and never wore heavy armors anyways.BLOOD AXE wrote:Why a Bard?
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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lobocastle
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Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Blood Axe,
Treebore is correct. Instead of the Race as class as used in OD&D; I used class as race to represent some of Gandalf's Istari nature.
JLL
Treebore is correct. Instead of the Race as class as used in OD&D; I used class as race to represent some of Gandalf's Istari nature.
JLL
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lobocastle
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Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Arduin,
When you refer to an Outsider template; are you referring to the templates in the D20 System Reference Document?
JLL
When you refer to an Outsider template; are you referring to the templates in the D20 System Reference Document?
JLL
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lobocastle
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Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Traveler,
1. He's certainly not 5th-level. Though Gandalf might have appeared the part of the simple wizard, he was anything but. Especially given the fact the Istari were forbidden from dominating the free people of Middle-earth and were not to match Sauron's power with their own.
Response: I do not believe that Gandalf was a 5th level magic user, however, an analysis of the spells used by Gandalf in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by conducted by Bill Seligman and others; is correct as far as I am concerned.
2. Bill Seligman's analysis only focuses on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Since it was written prior to the publication of The Silmarillion and the remainder of Tolkein's writings regarding Middle-earth, it naturally doesn't include any of that information. It's woefully out of date, and using it as the basis of a character writeup is unsound.
Response: Bill Seligman's analysis did only focus on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, which is fine with me as these were finished works by the original author. As far as I am concerned using the completed works of the original author is perfectly sound; I am not going to over obsess with trying to capture all of Gandalf's nature or abilities.
3. Since the Istari are Maiar in human form, their write-ups need to reflect their true power level rather than the apparent level.
Response: Oh, why is that? Perception is reality. Gandalf could die on Middle Earth the abilities that my NPC character write up allows the NPC to perform almost all the tasks Gandalf performed in the original books and in the current movie releases.
JLL
1. He's certainly not 5th-level. Though Gandalf might have appeared the part of the simple wizard, he was anything but. Especially given the fact the Istari were forbidden from dominating the free people of Middle-earth and were not to match Sauron's power with their own.
Response: I do not believe that Gandalf was a 5th level magic user, however, an analysis of the spells used by Gandalf in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by conducted by Bill Seligman and others; is correct as far as I am concerned.
2. Bill Seligman's analysis only focuses on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Since it was written prior to the publication of The Silmarillion and the remainder of Tolkein's writings regarding Middle-earth, it naturally doesn't include any of that information. It's woefully out of date, and using it as the basis of a character writeup is unsound.
Response: Bill Seligman's analysis did only focus on what was in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, which is fine with me as these were finished works by the original author. As far as I am concerned using the completed works of the original author is perfectly sound; I am not going to over obsess with trying to capture all of Gandalf's nature or abilities.
3. Since the Istari are Maiar in human form, their write-ups need to reflect their true power level rather than the apparent level.
Response: Oh, why is that? Perception is reality. Gandalf could die on Middle Earth the abilities that my NPC character write up allows the NPC to perform almost all the tasks Gandalf performed in the original books and in the current movie releases.
JLL
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Now, I'll start by saying I LOVE Tolkien. The Hobbit is the book that got me to love reading, and introduced me to this hobby. With that, I've tried to convert the works to AD&D many times and never got it right.
To me, the first step it to realize that Middle Earth is 'lower magic' or at least 'less flashy magic wise' than the standard game world.
Next, above and beyond the magic level, is the need to modify the magic to include the importance of mages having their staff.
As for his spells, I think some of his spells could fit cleric or druid spells (I forgot the spell lists I made back in the day - AD&D 2e time frame)
I hate to cut this short, but both my little ones have a soccer game ... got to go
To me, the first step it to realize that Middle Earth is 'lower magic' or at least 'less flashy magic wise' than the standard game world.
Next, above and beyond the magic level, is the need to modify the magic to include the importance of mages having their staff.
As for his spells, I think some of his spells could fit cleric or druid spells (I forgot the spell lists I made back in the day - AD&D 2e time frame)
I hate to cut this short, but both my little ones have a soccer game ... got to go
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
BLOOD AXE wrote:Why a Bard?
The bard is actually a perfect fit for Gandalf in many ways. Gandalf's primary strength was in motivating others. Kindling their spirits and spreading lore. Narya's powers were primarily those of kindling the hearts' of others.
Still, this is one instance where you'd have a much easier time representing Gandalf with some iteration of D&D, then C&C, I think.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Yes or create his Celestial race from scratch.lobocastle wrote:Arduin,
When you refer to an Outsider template; are you referring to the templates in the D20 System Reference Document?
JLL
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Seriously, if you're going to try and stat Gandalf, you can't use a Dragon magazine article from 1977 as your justification. The analysis is a product of its time, but not even close to state of the art. Just imagine if the space sciences ignored all the information learned through the Hubble telescope and you might see just how ridiculous the Dragon article appears today.
Unlike the OP, I'm not a Tolkein purist and tend to accept more than just The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as "canon". So let's see what I came up with. For the benefit of the "B" thread regarding what to use when statting Gandalf, this is Gandalf's avatar. His true form is godlike, and thus far more powerful than what's here. This is also based on a brief writeup by Egil on a thread from RPG.net (source) in 2002 that was discussing the very same thing.
Gandalf (Istari)
(designed using the Multiclassing option in the Player's Handbook Appendix)
S: 13* (+1)
D: 15 (+1)
C: 33 (+10)
I: 24* (+6)
W: 40 (+14)
Ch: 19* (+3)
* Primes
HD: 12d10, +4 for every level above 12.
HP: 238 (12d10 at 5.5HP per die = 66, +10HP per die for CON bonus = 120, +4HP per level above 12 = 52)
Classes: 25th-level Wizard/Bard/Ranger/Paladin
Spell Levels:
0: 8, 1st: 7, 2nd: 7, 3rd: 6, 4th: 6, 5th: 6, 6th: 5, 7th: 5, 8th: 5, 9th: 4
Equipment:
Glamdring (+6 holy avenger, orcslayer): Found in a troll treasure hoard, Glamdring is a longsword created by the Elves for use in the goblin wars that glows a dim blue when within 1000' of an orc, with the glow increasing in brightness to a bright blue within 100' of an orc. Glamdring's orcslayer ability operates identically to an arrow of slaying against orcs. On a successful hit the orc must make a Constitution save or die instantly.
Narya the Great (artifact): One of the three Elven rings, Narya renders its wearer immune to all forms of fire. With Narya the wearer can cast any fire-based spell as if it were cast by a 30th-level wizard. The Red Ring also has the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair. The wearer may use the bard's Exalt ability as if they were a 30th-level bard. Lastly, the wearer becomes immune to all normal and magical aging.
As one of the rings of power, the Ring of Fire is linked to the One Ring, and the wearer of the One Ring could perceive the thoughts of the wearer of Narya. However, unlike the rings of power forged for Dwarves and Men, the three Elven rings would not corrupt their wearers, for they were forged independently of Sauron.
Gandalf's Staff: The globe at the top of the staff can glow in any color or brightness approaching full daylight.
Robe of the Archmagi: See Monsters & Treasure
Unlike the OP, I'm not a Tolkein purist and tend to accept more than just The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as "canon". So let's see what I came up with. For the benefit of the "B" thread regarding what to use when statting Gandalf, this is Gandalf's avatar. His true form is godlike, and thus far more powerful than what's here. This is also based on a brief writeup by Egil on a thread from RPG.net (source) in 2002 that was discussing the very same thing.
Gandalf (Istari)
(designed using the Multiclassing option in the Player's Handbook Appendix)
S: 13* (+1)
D: 15 (+1)
C: 33 (+10)
I: 24* (+6)
W: 40 (+14)
Ch: 19* (+3)
* Primes
HD: 12d10, +4 for every level above 12.
HP: 238 (12d10 at 5.5HP per die = 66, +10HP per die for CON bonus = 120, +4HP per level above 12 = 52)
Classes: 25th-level Wizard/Bard/Ranger/Paladin
Spell Levels:
0: 8, 1st: 7, 2nd: 7, 3rd: 6, 4th: 6, 5th: 6, 6th: 5, 7th: 5, 8th: 5, 9th: 4
Equipment:
Glamdring (+6 holy avenger, orcslayer): Found in a troll treasure hoard, Glamdring is a longsword created by the Elves for use in the goblin wars that glows a dim blue when within 1000' of an orc, with the glow increasing in brightness to a bright blue within 100' of an orc. Glamdring's orcslayer ability operates identically to an arrow of slaying against orcs. On a successful hit the orc must make a Constitution save or die instantly.
Narya the Great (artifact): One of the three Elven rings, Narya renders its wearer immune to all forms of fire. With Narya the wearer can cast any fire-based spell as if it were cast by a 30th-level wizard. The Red Ring also has the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair. The wearer may use the bard's Exalt ability as if they were a 30th-level bard. Lastly, the wearer becomes immune to all normal and magical aging.
As one of the rings of power, the Ring of Fire is linked to the One Ring, and the wearer of the One Ring could perceive the thoughts of the wearer of Narya. However, unlike the rings of power forged for Dwarves and Men, the three Elven rings would not corrupt their wearers, for they were forged independently of Sauron.
Gandalf's Staff: The globe at the top of the staff can glow in any color or brightness approaching full daylight.
Robe of the Archmagi: See Monsters & Treasure
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
I think we should argue this some more so we can get some more pre generated NPC's.
OK, so both versions are wrong! Someone create a "correct" one!
OK, so both versions are wrong! Someone create a "correct" one!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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kreider204
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- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
GANDALF
Class: NPC plot device
Stats, Abilities, and Powers: 99% of the time, nothing remotely useful; otherwise, whatever's convenient for the story ...
Class: NPC plot device
Stats, Abilities, and Powers: 99% of the time, nothing remotely useful; otherwise, whatever's convenient for the story ...
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Thats pretty much perfect! Who can top this one?kreider204 wrote:GANDALF
Class: NPC plot device
Stats, Abilities, and Powers: 99% of the time, nothing remotely useful; otherwise, whatever's convenient for the story ...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
In terms of technique, rereading the OP's rendition the problem here is that class and a half really doesn't work for Gandalf. I had to stretch the other multiclassing rules myself to even attempt to stat Gandalf. But it's all moot as kreider hit the nail on the head here. NPC plot device is perfect, and I'm not going to attempt to top it, because I'm going to agree with you. While the OP's Gandalf is flawed for limiting itself to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, mine is flawed for being overpowered in terms of class levels. The levels should probably be around 18 at most.
So...NPC plot device for the win?
So...NPC plot device for the win?
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Treebore wrote:I think we should argue this some more so we can get some more pre generated NPC's.
OK, so both versions are wrong! Someone create a "correct" one!
Rgr that!
Treebore wrote:Thats pretty much perfect! Who can top this one?kreider204 wrote:
GANDALF
Class: NPC plot device
Stats, Abilities, and Powers: 99% of the time, nothing remotely useful; otherwise, whatever's convenient for the story ...
Now I'd argue the 'nothing remotely useful' point, but I like the spirit of that write up!
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
LOVE it!kreider204 wrote:GANDALF
Class: NPC plot device
Stats, Abilities, and Powers: 99% of the time, nothing remotely useful; otherwise, whatever's convenient for the story ...
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
OMG! Are we reaching a consensus? *GASP*
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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lobocastle
- Red Cap
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- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:00 am
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Traveler,
I appreciate you taking the time to present an alternative write up. I like the magic items. Gandalf did not, however, have access to that kind of magical might while on Middle Earth. In fact, not even Sauron had that kind of power on Middle Earth. When Gandalf was a Gray Wizard, he had about the same power as a Balrog. With your write up Gandalf could use a Balrog as a toy. On another plane Gandalf is probably far more like your write up though than mine.
Enjoy the festive banter,
JLL
I appreciate you taking the time to present an alternative write up. I like the magic items. Gandalf did not, however, have access to that kind of magical might while on Middle Earth. In fact, not even Sauron had that kind of power on Middle Earth. When Gandalf was a Gray Wizard, he had about the same power as a Balrog. With your write up Gandalf could use a Balrog as a toy. On another plane Gandalf is probably far more like your write up though than mine.
Enjoy the festive banter,
JLL
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kreider204
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Re: Gandalf Revisited:
I win! I win all the Internets! Yay!!!Treebore wrote:OMG! Are we reaching a consensus? *GASP*
These Gandalf threads pop up pretty regularly on the Interwebz. My inner anthropologist is fascinated by the strong feelings they evoke. This thread has managed to remain pretty civil, but if history is any indication, we're a couple of posts away from a serious blowout ...
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Yep. These conversations actually date back well before the WWW.kreider204 wrote:I win! I win all the Internets! Yay!!!Treebore wrote:OMG! Are we reaching a consensus? *GASP*
These Gandalf threads pop up pretty regularly on the Interwebz. My inner anthropologist is fascinated by the strong feelings they evoke.
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
Arduin wrote:Yep. These conversations actually date back well before the WWW.kreider204 wrote:I win! I win all the Internets! Yay!!!Treebore wrote:OMG! Are we reaching a consensus? *GASP*
These Gandalf threads pop up pretty regularly on the Interwebz. My inner anthropologist is fascinated by the strong feelings they evoke.
Heck, I remember all the debates we had while playing the Middle Earth RPG back in the 80's, which was before the WWW became anywhere close to being commonly accessed. So yeah, a long standing point of "debate".
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
-
kreider204
- Unkbartig
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: Gandalf Revisited:
I still have a soft spot for the original MERP. It's pretty much the only version of RM I'd have the guts to play again!Treebore wrote:Arduin wrote:Yep. These conversations actually date back well before the WWW.kreider204 wrote:I win! I win all the Internets! Yay!!!Treebore wrote:OMG! Are we reaching a consensus? *GASP*
These Gandalf threads pop up pretty regularly on the Interwebz. My inner anthropologist is fascinated by the strong feelings they evoke.
Heck, I remember all the debates we had while playing the Middle Earth RPG back in the 80's, which was before the WWW became anywhere close to being commonly accessed. So yeah, a long standing point of "debate".