defense: active v. passive

[kreider204]

Thoughts about active defense vs. passive defense? Advantages, disadvantages, preferences? Does it depend on the genre or style of play?

Obviously, D&D, C&C, and similar games use a mostly passive defense in the form of armor class, with a few more active defense options such as dodging. Given my gaming background, that's mostly what I'm used to.

Some games I've been playing or considering playing recently have active defenses, basically an attack roll v. a defense roll sort of thing. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Part of me likes the added realism, and that it makes combat a bit more interesting for the defender, but another part of me worries that it slows things down and that it can make things frustrating for the attacker (Attacker: "I made a great roll!" Defender: "Sorry, bub - I completely invalidated it with my own great roll.")

Thoughts?

[Treebore]

Yeah, even after playing and running the new Hackmaster for as long as I did, I am still up in the air about it. It definitely adds a lot of time to it, especially with players who can't seem to remember what their modifiers are from one roll to the next. Ultimately I think static works just fine, and all the "versus" system adds is time it takes to resolve.

[alcyone]

Mathematically, doesn't it just come to down to who is rolling the dice? There's still a random result based on the attacker and defender's stats. I guess when you can choose to dodge vs. parry there is a little bit of tactical information, but I think in those systems there is usually a best, default choice.

[Treebore]

In Hackmasters case, it is much like C&C in that you have a number of "Combat Maneuvers" you can opt to take that changes the modifiers. I think the biggest effect of "versus" rolling is that it makes both players feel more engaged, which is true, they are, but I am not sure if its worth the extra time. Especially when you have those players who cannot track their modifiers from one roll to the next. That gets incredibly irritating for those of us who are able to keep track.

[Arduin]

The 1st game I playrd that had active defense was Runequest. While I had fun playing that game, the combat ran slower than AD&D. I didn't see a real advantage over passive defensive of "AC".

[Lurker]

Well, I'm currently playing in a Star Wars d6 game and it uses both active (dodge) and passive defense (soak). I'll admit, I do enjoy the game (it is as much the group - well most of the group 1 player can be annoying at times ...). Not as much as C&C, but it is a close second.

Now does it slow the game down (the active & passive defense) ... maybe just a little. IF you compare it to C&C/AD&D 1 or 2e, compared to 3.5e ... not at all!

Can it be frustrating ... at times ... YES. I'll say, it is because, I have HORID luck on my rolls. However, that adds to the fun! Yes, so many times the bad guys have avoided a kill shot by the narrowest margin, but then at the most needed moment, you get that amazing roll &/or the bad guy bolos his roll.

To me, it is as much a function of the GM keeping the game rolling and narrating the game (with the rolls) and the guys playing knowing the game, as opposed to the strength/weakness of the rules.

[kreider204]

Interesting thoughts, thanks.
I've been reading BRP for a while now, though I've not yet played it. I like a lot of what I see, but I do worry about the attack roll v. defense roll, especially since there are so many possible results (critical success, special success, success, failure, fumble) that I feel like I'd be doing a lot of math in my head just to compare results, on top of the concerns about slowing things down. I think it might be all right in smaller battles, but I'd hate to do all that rolling with lots of NPCs in the mix ...
Ubiquity, which I have actually played several times lately, and might be my new favorite system, also does attack roll v. defense roll, but the GM can also take the average of NPC rolls, basically turning them into static target numbers. I like that a lot, because it puts ALL the rolls in the hands of the PCs, whether they are attacking or defending, so they aren't just sitting there while I make a bunch of attack rolls for NPCs.