Big SNAFU on the HH CKG...

[Treebore]

4 pages of maps are missing, apparently from all books, so to make this up to us everyone will be getting the Map booklet, apparently even if you already have it like I do. Hopefully this will lead to Steve and company utilizing us as extra eyes on the "printer version" of the PDF's before they go to printers. IE give them to us backers who are willing, for a week or two, to go over and discover as many errors as we can, to help the Trolls make the most error free products possible. Heck, Kenzer does this. They have a forum dedicated to each of their Hackmaster rule books they have done, where the hard core fans buy the pre print version of the rules and help them make sure its as error free as possible, and as clearly written as possible. They've been doing this for many months on their Game Master book, and its still in "Alpha" development, but is expected to go to Beta soon.

[Ithai]

What 4 pages are missing from the ckg? I have not compared the print to the digital yet.

[Treebore]

You know how they have a couple of map sections? There is a page missing in pretty much every one, IE its a blank white page. So find the section of pages where they have a cluster of maps, and you will find blank white pages in every one. At least in the print, I haven't checked to see if the problem was in our PDF's. They indicate this was a printer error, but then indicate they should have caught this mistake, so apparently this is still a Troll mistake. Oh well, now I will have places to write down campaign notes somewhere I won't lose them.

[BoomerET]

Treebore,

That was my thinking, maybe some notes and hand-drawn maps!


BoomerET

[Snoring Rock]

You know how they have a couple of map sections? There is a page missing in pretty much every one, IE its a blank white page. So find the section of pages where they have a cluster of maps, and you will find blank white pages in every one. At least in the print, I haven't checked to see if the problem was in our PDF's. They indicate this was a printer error, but then indicate they should have caught this mistake, so apparently this is still a Troll mistake. Oh well, now I will have places to write down campaign notes somewhere I won't lose them.

Well that is staying positive. I would volunteer to help be a set of eyes.

[Sir Ironside]

Wait. People have their print copy of HH?

[Treebore]

Wait. People have their print copy of HH?

Yep, the larger pledge orders were shipped out this week.

[Sir Ironside]

Wait. People have their print copy of HH?

Yep, the larger pledge orders were shipped out this week.

Thanks.

Mine is headed North of the border so I'm not worried yet.

Did anyone get an e-mail giving them a heads-up? Or, did it just show up?

[Treebore]

Wait. People have their print copy of HH?

Yep, the larger pledge orders were shipped out this week.

Thanks.

Mine is headed North of the border so I'm not worried yet.

Did anyone get an e-mail giving them a heads-up? Or, did it just show up?

Actually, they told us, via the Kickstarter, if you were still signed up to the HH KS.

[Sir Ironside]

Actually, they told us, via the Kickstarter, if you were still signed up to the HH KS.

No, I made alternate arrangements outside of Kickstarter... for the Kickstarter. So, I'm apart of the Kickstarter but don't have access to the Kickstarter.

I'll wait another week and if there is a no show I'll inquire then.

[Troll Lord]

Actually, they told us, via the Kickstarter, if you were still signed up to the HH KS.

No, I made alternate arrangements outside of Kickstarter... for the Kickstarter. So, I'm apart of the Kickstarter but don't have access to the Kickstarter.

I'll wait another week and if there is a no show I'll inquire then.

Ironside,

Please email Todd at orders@trolllord.com and put Haunted Highlands Order in the title. I'll tell him to look out for it. I want to make sure you are in the mix since you are out of the KS pledge page thingee.

Outside US orders have been shipping this week. And minis and dice and tshirts, etc.

Steve

[BoomerET]

Never rec'd notice, the HUGE box just appeared on my doorstep a few days ago.


BoomerET

[Treebore]

Never rec'd notice, the HUGE box just appeared on my doorstep a few days ago.


BoomerET

If you didn't unsubscribe, you should have gotten the KS notice about the Snafu yesterday.

[BoomerET]

Oh, I got that, I thought the post was about notice of HH shipping.

[gabriellyon]

While I understand there are the missing pages in the ckg, how would people rate this product overall. Noticed that my flgs has a copy in stock and was thinking about picking it up. Also if I did get it, how would I get the missing maps?

[Treebore]

While I understand there are the missing pages in the ckg, how would people rate this product overall. Noticed that my flgs has a copy in stock and was thinking about picking it up. Also if I did get it, how would I get the missing maps?

As far as I know, the missing maps are only in the map booklet I got via the KS, I haven't seen how the Trolls will do it for General sales.

As for how is the book? Well, aside from the usual TLG errors of errata and missing maps, its pretty darn awesome! I would recommend getting both books, though, both the CKG and the Players book. Tons and tons of stuff, characters, locations, classes, spells, etc... Plus the Players book is really, truly, a customized Players Handbook for the setting (including new classes), and the CKG is the same, the CKG made specifically for the Haunted Highlands setting, plus a whole lot more! Adventures! Mysteries! Magic! Wonders! They are all within!

[gabriellyon]

Thank you Treebore. If you don't mind me asking, how bad is the errata for Haunted highlands? I was not able to find any posts online about it. Also if I could only pickup one of the two books right now, which would you recommend? I am sort of all ready leaning towards the ckg. I saw a review of the phb which made it sound like little new material was added, plus my players already have characters that I was hoping to transport to the hh when the reach a certain mural room in the dungeon they are exploring. Can you run hh without having the phb?

[Treebore]

Thank you Treebore. If you don't mind me asking, how bad is the errata for Haunted highlands? I was not able to find any posts online about it. Also if I could only pickup one of the two books right now, which would you recommend? I am sort of all ready leaning towards the ckg. I saw a review of the phb which made it sound like little new material was added, plus my players already have characters that I was hoping to transport to the hh when the reach a certain mural room in the dungeon they are exploring. Can you run hh without having the phb?

If new classes and stuff doesn't sound like what you need, then the CKG is definitely the way to go since that is where the new setting/adventure material primarily is. As for errata, aside from the missing maps, so far its been the usual small missing words, mispellings, etc... and I have yet to come across anything that confuses the rules or the setting, like I ran into with the Tainted Lands material. But I have yet to really read everything completely yet, so I can definitely have missed something else major in the writing.

[dachda]

I've now read thru both the CKG and PH books of HH. There are some very annoying typo errors, including missing text at the end of paragraphs, and the inclusion of editor's notes into the text. Most of this is easily found even with a light reading and it just boggles my mind why TLG can't catch this stuff before printing.

The other problem which also seems to be a never-ending issue with TLG are the maps. I've yet to find a TLG module without map problems, some easy to overlook , some requiring me to redo entire maps. These issues include, easy to fix stuff, like missing room numbers, missing symbols for doors, secret doors, traps etc... that just need a careful reading of the text while comparing the text to the maps. Worse issues are missing rooms, squares being too small so as to become useless for scale, the text saying a door is on the east wall, but it is on the west wall. Or in the case of Dirty Bowbe's new road house maps, the text talking about a west wing and an east wing, but the map showing a square building. Or the text saying there are ten rooms upstairs but the map showing more than that! The original DB1 modules showed the outside areas of the road house, but that is missing in the new CKG of HH. I could go on and on about the map issues. These issues are a consistent issue with TLG adventures and are very aggravating.

BUT, Casey's material is fun and fantastic stuff! It is only the layout, typos, errata and map issues that are the downside. Well worth buying if you are ready to deal those issues.

[gabriellyon]

"It is only the layout, typos, errata and map issues that are the downside"
When you put it like that it almost feels like that covers every problem the book could have short of physically falling apart on me. Well I am all too aware of the Trolls quality issues which is my biggest complaint with their products. It makes it very hard to recommend to others knowing these issues exist, it also keeps me from pledging to Kickstarters and pre-orders until I know how badly the work suffers from Troll Syndrome. I will take a look at the CKG for HH again and maybe take the plunge. Thank you for the heads up dachda. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[dachda]

"It is only the layout, typos, errata and map issues that are the downside"
When you put it like that it almost feels like that covers every problem the book could have short of physically falling apart on me. Well I am all too aware of the Trolls quality issues which is my biggest complaint with their products. It makes it very hard to recommend to others knowing these issues exist, it also keeps me from pledging to Kickstarters and pre-orders until I know how badly the work suffers from Troll Syndrome. I will take a look at the CKG for HH again and maybe take the plunge. Thank you for the heads up dachda. Your input is greatly appreciated.

It is frustrating, because I always love the Troll content, in every product of theirs I've bought. Which is everything actually, except, the old D20 stuff. But the continual layout, mapping, and typo issues are aggravating. Especially when I can find free stuff on-line written by amateur writers/designers, with none of these issues, and better layout to boot! I wonder if one of the problems is TLG relying solely on Peter Bradley, for the graphic layout, mapping, and most artwork. Maybe he is overworked?

[Troll Lord]

It is frustrating, because I always love the Troll content, in every product of theirs I've bought. Which is everything actually, except, the old D20 stuff. But the continual layout, mapping, and typo issues are aggravating. Especially when I can find free stuff on-line written by amateur writers/designers, with none of these issues, and better layout to boot! I wonder if one of the problems is TLG relying solely on Peter Bradley, for the graphic layout, mapping, and most artwork. Maybe he is overworked?

Dachda,

I feel you. Trust me I do. I've been listening to these problems for about 14 years now and every fix we do seems to have no affect. Editing these books is extremely hard, far harder than you think it is. So I offer that as a defense for the many editors we've used over the years. It is not a defense for me however. I'm the last line of defense and I'm the one who gives these books the green light.

I'm not sure what happened with Haunted Highlands. Was it too big a job for one man (Peter)? Not if that was all he's doing, but its not all that he's doing and it is too big for that. Things were missed that should not have been, especially those blank pages. We had one editor, edit the book, another go over it. Then layout and then Casey and I looked over the book again. Then the book was released on PDF for several months. All KS backers received. I had it. Casey. Everyone. But still those problems remained. That's why I'm not sure where the issue actually occurred. It may have been at the printer or here...but regardless I had the final proofing on those pages and I should have caught the blanks. I know exactly why I didn't catch them and its a problem that won't occur again.

So this mess landed on my desk in the final proofing of Codex Nordica. Needless to say I was stunned incoherent.

Essentially these books are vastly more complicated to write, edit and layout than one things. But that not an excuse, what it is a reality which TLG must, once again, adjust to (should have adjusted to before, but the Kickstarter bandwagon has impacted our scheduling). I can say the CKG is coming out, but if you haven't paid for it, really its no big deal. But once you paid for it then that's a real problem (take the Codex of Aihrde for instance, all those backers from 2012 still have not gotten their books, but they PAID for it, that's not right), so that in the KS environ the pressure to release on schedule is greater. And that HH material was already horribly late...so things slip.

Its the eternal problem compounded by all the various business related crap that comes with a business.

But that's not an excuse for any of this. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

These are the changes I instituted the day that HH mess landed on my desk.

Editing Process
1) Writer submits ms to me. I give it a brief look over to make sure things like stat blocks are in order and the book is complete.
2) Book goes to editing. Editor confers with author.
3) Book is returned to me complete. The book goes to a second editor.
4) Book is returned to me.
5) Book goes to layout.
6) Book is returned to me
7) Book is printed in the shop. Galley copy. Mark (one of the editors) take the book and goes over it for font/layout/formatting issues.
8) Book goes to me and then to printers.
9) Printer makes galley copy.
10) Tim goes over galley copy for any last minute problems.
11) Book is printed.

This is not going to fix all these problems, but it should stop some of them.

But, sincerely. I thank you and all of you out there who continue to give us love and support.

Thanks!
Steve

ps: Just to be clear, its not accurate to compare (and I'm sure you know this, but I just want to put it out there for those who might not), a published book to something free on the net. Free material has no deadlines to meet, no cash crunch to worry about. It can be edited and changed every day until it is flawless. Once printed. Your printed....little known story the original 1st printing of the PH was not supposed to be as light, almost sandy yellow as it was. But rather darker. I remember opening those boxes of thousands and thousands of books and thinking "Sweet lord"...but there is nothing you can do once printed.

So

[Treebore]

You need to add a step in there, "Distribute pre printing PDF to trusted fans to get extra eyes on it to spot more problems." Somewhere between steps 6 and 8.

Edit: and for KS projects, distribute pre release PDF's to backers, asking them to report errata issues, and create an e-mail specific to each and every project, if you have that many e-mails available to you via your service, for us to send the feedback to.

[Troll Lord]

You need to add a step in there, "Distribute pre printing PDF to trusted fans to get extra eyes on it to spot more problems." Somewhere between steps 6 and 8.

Edit: and for KS projects, distribute pre release PDF's to backers, asking them to report errata issues, and create an e-mail specific to each and every project, if you have that many e-mails available to you via your service, for us to send the feedback to.

We actually did send a call out on HH and we did get some feed back and edits in it. This was after the PDF was released to the KS backers, but clearly things were still missing. And I'm certainly not faulting anyone for this. There are just too many problems with that approach, not least of which is the logistics of communications.

Steve

[Treebore]

Maybe the forum approach Kenzer does? If you haven't already talked to them about it, ask them how they do theirs. Of course they also do a much slower release schedule than you do as well. They've been working on their GMG for a long time now.

[Troll Lord]

Maybe the forum approach Kenzer does? If you haven't already talked to them about it, ask them how they do theirs. Of course they also do a much slower release schedule than you do as well. They've been working on their GMG for a long time now.

Yeah. There is the rub I think Treebore. I've increased our production rate, but have not adequately increased our personnel.

I did forget to mention. Peter has asked for and we are hiring him an intern to help with his layout and the graphic design. She starts in June I believe.

I do want to say, to all of you (not just Treebore, whose been a immense help with the Knights roll out and what not), that all of these comments and criticisms are much appreciate, read, digested and acted on (well generally, not all of them )

Thanks,
Steve

[dachda]

Fantastic Steve,

I'm glad of your efforts to find fixes. I'd add a focus on the maps in the editing process. They frequently (in many adventures) are missing room numbers, symbols for doors, secret doors etc . . ., have the wrong square scale, or even are missing parts of the map. All these I've caught by reading the text and comparing it to the included maps. Please have your editors not just check the text, but also compare the text to the maps, to make sure the maps are properly useable.

- Chris

[gabriellyon]

Well I took the plunge and picked up the HH CKG book. I did notice that some parts of the maps are missing in this and are just white pages. Is there any way to get a copy of the missing maps?

[Treebore]

Well I took the plunge and picked up the HH CKG book. I did notice that some parts of the maps are missing in this and are just white pages. Is there any way to get a copy of the missing maps?

The way for KS supporters has been announced, but I haven't seen anything official about how store buyers are to get them, so hopefully Steve will check back in on this thread and give an answer.

[Arduin]

These are the changes I instituted the day that HH mess landed on my desk.

Editing Process
1) Writer submits ms to me. I give it a brief look over to make sure things like stat blocks are in order and the book is complete.

<snipped>

This is not going to fix all these problems, but it should stop some of them.

But, sincerely. I thank you and all of you out there who continue to give us love and support.

Thanks!
Steve

I don't know if what I'm about to suggest is feasible or desirable from a business angle but here goes. What if instead of sending to print after step 10, turn into PDF form and sell it to us who want PDF's. We can go over (all of us who buy those) and send feedback within a couple weeks. With that info, make any corrections and THEN send to expensive physical printing...

Think of it as a risk free shake down cruise.