Skilled levels

[Ronin77]

Ive been toying with the idea of skill levels. I'm pretty strict about only adding class levels when it pertains to skill tied to the class. For example, a ranger foraging or identifying plants/animals. Since that level is how experienced he is as a Ranger.

What about giving levels just for skill purposes?

For example, say I wanted a fighter with some talent as a thief, something more than just a high Dex. without duel class.

What about the idea of giving up a single level in your actual class to gain skill levels equal to half of your actual class in a second class. For example a level 6 fighter rolls as a level 5 fighter for skill rolls, but also gets to add 3 to thief skill rolls.

The half level is only usable for skill rolls. The character doesn't get any other benefit from the second class, no class abilities, no class bonuses, no class proficiencies. For all those purposes he is a level 6 fighter.

Maybe rolling at half his original class is too high. But it needs to be higher than a 1 for 1 ration since he gets no other benefit from the secondary class.
maybe 2 skill levels for a single drop in actual level? or 3 to 1?

Or maybe this should be a Talent? each time the talent is taken it gives you a single "skill level" in another class.

Just toying with the idea at the moment. I dont want duel classing to be common place. But I do believe character should be able to be less focused and broader skilled if the player chooses.

[Treebore]

Doesn't the Skill Advantage allow you to select a single skill to become a "Class Skill" for you? If so that advantage would allow a PC to pick up 6 additional Class Skills.

[Ronin77]

I'm really thinking of more associated (secondary) skill rolls....like the example of the ranger foraging, Identifying animals or plants. Broader than just a single class ability becoming a class ability. maybe that is a bad example.

If you took a skill level in fighter a character could use it on rolls on tactics and strategy, Finding a weakness in the enemies stance or defense. Maybe even repair and maintain his own armor.

A level in thief could be used to know who to bargain with in the black market or rolls to know thieves signals and markings.

Less about ability rolls like thieves moving silent or rangers tracking ability. More about all the secondary skills associated with the class.

That is why I think a 1 for 1 exchange (as in duel classing) is too costly since its only for (secondary) skill rolls.....maybe secondary skill level is a better name? or class knowledge rolls.

Hope that is a better explanation.

[Treebore]

Oh, I just do that as a general "the class should know that" kind of skill roll. I think even Steve mentioned how he does the same thing, and that it has been inferred all along, but will be one of the new things more clearly stated in the new printing. Or was that done in the 5th printing? I don't know. But, yeah, when its something that I think falls under what a given class SHOULD know, I have them roll just like its a Class skill.

[Buttmonkey]

Oh, I just do that as a general "the class should know that" kind of skill roll. I think even Steve mentioned how he does the same thing, and that it has been inferred all along, but will be one of the new things more clearly stated in the new printing. Or was that done in the 5th printing? I don't know. But, yeah, when its something that I think falls under what a given class SHOULD know, I have them roll just like its a Class skill.

I think you're missing the OP's point. He isn't suggesting a thief should get a SIEGE check to do non-specified thiefy things like knowing who to talk to at a black market. The OP is suggesting there should be a way for non-thieves to sacrifice something in exchange for having some thiefy abilities on top of their own class abilities like a fighter being able to read thief runes/signals.

[Treebore]

Oh, I just do that as a general "the class should know that" kind of skill roll. I think even Steve mentioned how he does the same thing, and that it has been inferred all along, but will be one of the new things more clearly stated in the new printing. Or was that done in the 5th printing? I don't know. But, yeah, when its something that I think falls under what a given class SHOULD know, I have them roll just like its a Class skill.

I think you're missing the OP's point. He isn't suggesting a thief should get a SIEGE check to do non-specified thiefy things like knowing who to talk to at a black market. The OP is suggesting there should be a way for non-thieves to sacrifice something in exchange for having some thiefy abilities on top of their own class abilities like a fighter being able to read thief runes/signals.

Ah, yeah, well that would go back to using either the Advantages system in the CKG, or using the old XP buying system that was in the Yggsburgh book.

Edit: Plus I believe the CKG goes into a few alternate skill type systems you can also see about adapting to this idea.

[jdizzy001]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

[Arduin]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

No, that wouldn't be logical as there is no background training that would make that a real possibility. Knowledge tends to be built on prior knowledge, work & study. It doesn't spring full born from whole cloth.

[Treebore]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

No, that wouldn't be logical as there is no background training that would make that a real possibility. Knowledge tends to be built on prior knowledge, work & study. It doesn't spring full born from whole cloth.

True, but there are a lot of things in a magical fantasy game that do spring forth from whole cloth, and a player can probably come up with a brief back ground story to explain how and why they have a different "skill" than is normal for their class. Heck, I thought of several potential stories while writing this.

[Arduin]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

No, that wouldn't be logical as there is no background training that would make that a real possibility. Knowledge tends to be built on prior knowledge, work & study. It doesn't spring full born from whole cloth.

True, but there are a lot of things in a magical fantasy game that do spring forth from whole cloth,

Yes, but that is apples and oranges as we aren't talking magic. People don't start floating around even in this setting without magic.

[Treebore]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

No, that wouldn't be logical as there is no background training that would make that a real possibility. Knowledge tends to be built on prior knowledge, work & study. It doesn't spring full born from whole cloth.

True, but there are a lot of things in a magical fantasy game that do spring forth from whole cloth,

Yes, but that is apples and oranges as we aren't talking magic. People don't start floating around even in this setting without magic.

Which is why I brought up creating a back story to explain why their PC is different. Plus I find if I require it, many players are simply too lazy to do the writing, so it never ends up getting done.

[Rigon]

Have you considered allowing the pc's to select a different class ability? For example, instead of taking combat dominance, the fighter could elect to select a rouge power of the same or less level. So in game play, instead of choosing combat dominance he could select cant.

I'd allow this. Especially if the player came up with some good back story to make it fit. Or if the PC spent a lot of time hanging out with a thief and picked up the skill through association. Any way you decide to go with it, will be correct, was long as you and your players are having fun.

R-

[jdizzy001]

I agree, require some training time. Something complex or easy as "at night the rogue shows me some tricks." Or back story. You could also use secondary skills located in the ckg, but i have a feeling that is not what you're looking for.

[Ronin77]

Every one keeps going back to class abilities on this. As it was pointed out this is available as an advantage. Its really not the point of my idea. I must just use siege rolls for secondary skill rolls differently. Rolls not associated with abilities but rather about "additional knowledge" used by a class.

Maybe I'm not explaining it right....

[Snoring Rock]

You should try defining what a rogue skill is. For most of us I think that means picking pockets, finding traps, and removing traps, that kind of thing. I think I understand where you want to go, but I like to keep it as simple as possible. C&C was designed to keep fighters as fighters, and rogues as rogues, and not blur the lines too much. As suggested, possibly using the advantage system or even adding to it out of Pathfinder may work for you. Your examples do not fit the "skills" mold. You could port in the skills from Pathfinder, but not sure that is what you are looking for.

[jdizzy001]

You could just use the seconday skills from the ckg

[Treebore]

There are Class Skills, then all other Skills. I run it so that only a Class with the "Class Skill" gets to add level, anyone else of any other class cannot add level. All other skill rolls can be rolled by anyone, and they can all add level. Which is by the book. I thought you were talking about skills you think a given class could have, but doesn't have it written into the book. For example, Fighters making weapons and armor. If that is indeed what you are talking about, as I said earlier, I just treat them as having the skill, and roll appropriately based upon having a Prime or non Prime related attribute. Ideally, at character creation, my players create a background explaining why they have any skills that are not default skills of their class. I even ask them to do this in my House Rules document. Even then, there are things I can agree that a given class "should" probably know. Such as a Wizard having a certain degree of knowledge about other planes,and magical creatures from those planes Wizards have a long "history" of summoning or making dealings with, and so on.