I think the "Sisters" will make it to "Full color"...

[Troll Lord]

Is the leather genuine? I like the idea of books that look like leather, but I have been trying to avoid buying animal products for clothing or decoration if I can avoid it, and would actually prefer some kind of faux leather.

Aergraith, yes it is genuine. They do not offer a faux leather at the printer we use.

Sorry about that!

Steve

[Arduin]

Is the leather genuine? I like the idea of books that look like leather, but I have been trying to avoid buying animal products for clothing or decoration if I can avoid it, and would actually prefer some kind of faux leather.

Ya have to realize that the animals in question are raised for food. Even if NO person used their hide, they'd be used for human food anyway. The end would be the same.

99% of people don;t realize that when it comes to most leather goods.

[alcyone]

Is the leather genuine? I like the idea of books that look like leather, but I have been trying to avoid buying animal products for clothing or decoration if I can avoid it, and would actually prefer some kind of faux leather.

Ya have to realize that the animals in question are raised for food. Even if NO person used their hide, they'd be used for human food anyway. The end would be the same.

99% of people don;t realize that when it comes to most leather goods.

I do realize that. I'm doing this for myself, not to change the world. Think of it as unlocking an achievement.

[alcyone]

But to put your concerns to rest, each change posted on that discussion was addressed by me in that forum. You can read them in red, in each individual post, here: [url+viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13691&p=212033#p212033Players Handbook Six[/url]. I did the same thing on the google document here however there, I only put my comments in red if the change did not go in.

Holy buckets, I did miss all the red ink. However, you didn't address my thrown liquids comment! I declare your work incomplete!

[Troll Lord]

Is the leather genuine? I like the idea of books that look like leather, but I have been trying to avoid buying animal products for clothing or decoration if I can avoid it, and would actually prefer some kind of faux leather.

Ya have to realize that the animals in question are raised for food. Even if NO person used their hide, they'd be used for human food anyway. The end would be the same.

99% of people don;t realize that when it comes to most leather goods.

I do realize that. I'm doing this for myself, not to change the world. Think of it as unlocking an achievement.

That deserves a Trollzah!

Steve

[Troll Lord]

But to put your concerns to rest, each change posted on that discussion was addressed by me in that forum. You can read them in red, in each individual post, here: [url+viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13691&p=212033#p212033Players Handbook Six[/url]. I did the same thing on the google document here however there, I only put my comments in red if the change did not go in.

Holy buckets, I did miss all the red ink. However, you didn't address my thrown liquids comment! I declare your work incomplete!

Dang it!!!

Just fixed it.

There are a few at the end of that I never saw, posted after I thought I had closed the thread, which clearly I failed to do!

Steve

[TheMetal1]

Alright, so I'm in for this Kickstarter business and pledged. Watched a lot of kickstarters come and go, but never pulled the trigger. But for this, yeah, this one is worth it. Looking forward to seeing all of these in color with new covers, along with some add-ons.

[Treebore]

For the record my wife said "no" to upgrading to leather. She was right, I told her how these were the definitive printing because finally all the errata would be addressed, across all 3 books, and she basically said, so that means you will want to use them, since they will be the most accurate? I said, "Yes." She said, "But when you get leather versions, you don't use them. You put them on your shelf, and they stay there as "display". So no, you cannot upgrade to leather, because then you will make the books go unused."

I cannot argue, she is right.

[alcyone]

I cannot argue, she is right.

Very wise. So, that means you can go buy leather 1st printings?

[alcyone]

I still think I'd pay some amount of money for C&C in a 3 ring binder with tabs. Then I can slip in corrections and reprint pages with errata or whatever, put maps and house rules in it. Yes, I could print it out myself, but I have to think TLG could do it cheaper.

[Treebore]

I cannot argue, she is right.

Very wise. So, that means you can go buy leather 1st printings?

I have the Third printings in leather. I got those so cheap I actually use them. When you hear me saying I am looking up a spell or monster during our Monday game, they are the books I am using.

[Arduin]

I still think I'd pay some amount of money for C&C in a 3 ring binder with tabs. Then I can slip in corrections and reprint pages with errata or whatever, put maps and house rules in it. Yes, I could print it out myself, but I have to think TLG could do it cheaper.

Like with 2nd Ed? I liked that when I got it. Even put those round protectors on each hole in the paper. They still tore through pretty quickly. If they were printed on REALLY tear resistant paper, maybe.

[alcyone]

Sure, but the difference is I'd have a PDF to print out a page here and there if one got damaged.

[Arduin]

Sure, but the difference is I'd have a PDF to print out a page here and there if one got damaged.

Bingo! Good point.

[thenorthman]

I picked up the Leather version (guess its the third edition) for the players book and Monsters & Treasures at Gencon in the auction store. Pretty reasonably priced.

Then I saw Troll Lord Games in the vendor hall and was convinced, quite easily mind you, to grab the three sisters most current printing. I was looking for PDF and it turned me off a little to have to pay so much extra for them over the cost of the books. The books went onto the shelf and never cracked them open.

Usually read of my iPad the RPG books I pick up. What made me think of this was the post a little earlier about the wife saying no to the leather....and the logic. With that logic I should never get a physical book. This made me go grab my copy of the 5th edition players books and crack it open and start reading it.

Like what I see so far.

Glad I do since I went for the level 9 on the kickstarter.

Here is to hoping that its worked out that at conventions when a person picks up a book they can also get the "print & digital" price to be able to grab the digital copy as well. (Is that a newer option? For some reason don't remember seeing it on the site when I briefly looked last year after Gencon.)

At any rate thanks for a great Kickstarter and looking forward to the products and getting my wife and son into the game.

Sean

[Sir Ironside]

Then I saw Troll Lord Games in the vendor hall and was convinced, quite easily mind you, to grab the three sisters most current printing. I was looking for PDF and it turned me off a little to have to pay so much extra for them over the cost of the books. The books went onto the shelf and never cracked them open.

I see things differently. When I buy a rpg book or pdf I'm buying the contents, what they are packaged as is a choice. As long as the pdf costs less in terms of what printing the book would be I'm fine with that. RPG's, like it or not, is a niche hobby that is very competitive and any company getting fair return, on their work, seems OK with me, especially when I want to support a game/company that I like.

I think the gaming community got spoiled when pdf's where a curiosity and was often bundled together with the printed book for an extra $5.00 or so. For some reason everyone expected this trend to continue when pdf's became widely available and used. I think most companies are now rethinking the cost of a pdf as it is becoming a popular way to sell rpg's. I think, we as consumers, shouldn't balk at higher but reasonable prices knowing it is helping keep our favourite games in print.

You have to start considering that pdf's and books are separate products and not one being an extension of the other.

If you have sticker shock for TLG pdf's, then I'd sit down before you go and see what GURPS pdf's sell for.

[Treebore]

I get TLG PDF's only at two times, when they are a combo in a Kickstarter with the print book, or when they are on sale. So I only buy PDF's once, maybe twice, per year outside of the TLG Kickstarters. Of course, now I own everything, so won't need to buy any more until something new comes out.

On top of that, I don't care if RPG's are a niche hobby. What is far more important to me is spending my money as frugally as possible, especially on a hobby I don't need anything more for. My first, and only priority, is to support my hobbies in a way that do not negatively impact the needs of my family. The RPG industry can disappear for all I care in comparison to that. So RPG companies can think and wish I support them at full price all they want, but I will spend my money as I see fit, not how they tell or beg me to. Besides, the Trolls know, if they ever look at my purchasing history, I only buy from them when they are running their exceptionally good sales or give a good deal via their Kickstarters. In fact, I don't buy from anyone at full price, if I don't find a 30% or better mark down on a RPG product, I don't buy them. With Amazon and my list of other on line vendors, I never pay more than 70% of retail on print books. As for PDF's, I refuse to pay more than 60% of print price, so only buy TLG PDF's when they meet that requirement, which they do, sooner or later. Just like their awesome deals on their adventure PDF's during this Kickstarter illustrated.

[thenorthman]

Then I saw Troll Lord Games in the vendor hall and was convinced, quite easily mind you, to grab the three sisters most current printing. I was looking for PDF and it turned me off a little to have to pay so much extra for them over the cost of the books. The books went onto the shelf and never cracked them open.

I see things differently. When I buy a rpg book or pdf I'm buying the contents, what they are packaged as is a choice. As long as the pdf costs less in terms of what printing the book would be I'm fine with that. RPG's, like it or not, is a niche hobby that is very competitive and any company getting fair return, on their work, seems OK with me, especially when I want to support a game/company that I like.

I think the gaming community got spoiled when pdf's where a curiosity and was often bundled together with the printed book for an extra $5.00 or so. For some reason everyone expected this trend to continue when pdf's became widely available and used. I think most companies are now rethinking the cost of a pdf as it is becoming a popular way to sell rpg's. I think, we as consumers, shouldn't balk at higher but reasonable prices knowing it is helping keep our favourite games in print.

You have to start considering that pdf's and books are separate products and not one being an extension of the other.

If you have sticker shock for TLG pdf's, then I'd sit down before you go and see what GURPS pdf's sell for.

Yea ok.....but it sure seems Pazio has done extremely well being the top RPG product in terms of sale now. Swords and Wizardry also gives a PDF with the purchase of the dead tree version.

D & D reigned in their PDFs soon after 4e was released. I strongly doubt it's the reason 4e went south so quickly but I also don't believe in coincidences.

Castles and Crusades has been around longer than Sword and Wizardry but bet you it's one reason their kickstarters are so successful. It's a common question during the Kickstarter and on the forum.

I am not saying Castles and Crusades should follow suit but it might be something to think about. I guarantee I am not the only one.

Just my two cents. I am going to do the print and digital price of C&C products right now but might switch to just digital. Which a publishing company can't survive with. They need people to purchase the dead tree book to survive., or if they do survive they definitely need dead tree books to prosper.

I never read the physical book. Me it's always on my iPad. Tried reading the Players book last night in bed.

Felt strange. Had to have th light on and it was cumbersome to turn the pages. . Still read it some though.

[thenorthman]

Should clarify....it was the price of getting the PDF over the book I purchased at Gencon.

Right now I see their Print and Digital options as pretty decent. Maybe a little higher than I am use to be still reasonable. If they solve the issue of doing the Print & Digital at conventions I'd be all over the books.

[Sir Ironside]

Just my two cents. I am going to do the print and digital price of C&C products right now but might switch to just digital. Which a publishing company can't survive with. They need people to purchase the dead tree book to survive., or if they do survive they definitely need dead tree books to prosper.

I don't think this is the truth anymore. There are plenty of products that are pdf only and even using my GURPS example, if not for the pdf's I don't think GURPS would survive as a product. The proof is pretty much there because they rarely print books anymore, except highly anticipated ones or they'll make a book POD if it does really well being sold as a pdf.

Right now pdf pricing is in a flux because not all companies treat it the same. I'd venture a guess that 5 years from now we'll see a more stable pricing system, across the board. It is a combination of companies finding the sweet spot for pricing pdf's and the customers acceptance that they are buying content over the worth of the medium it is presented in.

I'm finding Kickstarters to be pretty great as with TLG's last Kickstarter I'm getting all the books with all 3 pdf's and a whole bunch of other cool things for $99. TLG also has many sales, so if you just wait for them you can buy all the things you want at a reduced pice.

[thenorthman]

The GURPS example I think is a prime example of what can happen when a company treat PDF's like GURPS did. My point of a publishing company needing Dead Tree versions to survive and not just PDF versions. Sounds like they priced themselves out of a physical product. Of course that is only speculation as I have no direct knowledge of the GURPS and only have a few GURP books from a large store purchase of mine at $0.10 on the dollar. Even these didn't sell at Gencon...even had them down to $0.20 on the dollar. SO they sit on my shelf because it pains me to just throw them away. In fact looking at maybe donating them to a library.

I think GURPS only doing PDF's now might have more to do with something else than the reason you present after looking into it a little more. It was never a super popular game system and is years past its peak. Not meant to be a knock but just a personal observation which could be totally off.

Then you have Game publishers putting their PDF's of rules on their sites for free. GMT games as a prime example. Once again it might have something to do with GMT success the past few years.

As to the price fluctuation of PDF's I sure haven't seen it but of course haven't checked out every company that is out their.

I looked closer at the prices of Troll Lord Games and compared it to Pazio and Frog God Games and some other RPG publishers (These other publishers just charge more for the purchase of just the physical product but then offer the PDF for "free" but in reality its already in the price. Example $39.99 for a hard cover at Pazio is right in line with TLG Print and Digital price point.). Where I was dissatisfied was looking at JUST the PDF price after getting the book at Gencon. Yet its not different from the other companies if you buy them separately I guess. But with Frog God Games if you email them saying you purchased the Physical book and show proof of it they will grant you the PDF for free on your account with them. Sounds like TLG might be trying to get to that point or something along those lines at Conventions which I think they would benefit greatly if they do manage a solution for it.

I don't personally see the flux your talking about. Yet that doesn't mean it is not happening of course. If anything what I am seeing is more and more companies switching to the Print and Digital format for people to purchase. In fact Apple and publishers as well as Amazon got in trouble recently for supposedly price gauging of their digital products (it was some news article and I actually received a notice that some of my purchases on Amazon I was refunded as credit. Think I got around $24 or so...long spent though :O). So if this is the flux your talking about, then prices might be coming down a little even though I haven't see it yet in all products. I do believe in five years time most publishers will be offering a Print and Digital option and if they were forced to just digital it means they are not actually doing to well in the big picture.

Of course all just my personal opinion.

The kickstarter was a great deal even at the three sisters in leather level. Basically six books for $240 with three of them in leather. Awesome price point, averaging $40 a book including the PDF of all three books. Of course more for the leather and less for the regular version. I was in at this level from nearly the beginning of the campaign when someone posted in the Frog God Games campaign. Think it was the second day of the TLG campaign and saw that value right away. (In fact I only spent $66 at the FGG campaign, with me going over 7 times that on this campaign. Mind you for FGG campaign for the S&W core book a couple of years ago, I was close to what I backed for TLG). The other stuff thrown in was just a bonus! Especially the key chain bottle opener!

TO sum up, my initial price shock was wrong after looking closer at the price point of the digital and physical price point it isn't that far off of the other companies I shop for my RPG products.

What turned me off was getting JUST the digital copy price point but also upon reflection isn't that far off what other companies charge if just for the digital (hard to compare that with Pazio's hardcover due to their $9.99 core rule book point, but thats smart marketing knowing people will purchase the physical book a good percentage of the time after buying the PDF.)

Which it sound like Troll Lord Games recognized this issue with trying to find a solution at conventions. That thumb drive is an excellent idea at the conventions. Or even just email to the customer if they have access in the hall......or something.

At any rate only time will tell.

EDIT: Guess if you compare the three sisters at the $99 level it averages out to $33 a core book then for the $240 level it means $47 per leather copy. That is an incredible deal for the leather books!!!

[Arduin]

In fact Apple and publishers as well as Amazon got in trouble recently for supposedly price gauging of their digital products (it was some news article and I actually received a notice that some of my purchases on Amazon

They got into trouble for Price Fixing as DISTRIBUTORS. Not something that can happen to the author/publisher of an original product. For instance, TLG couldn't get into the same legal trouble for pricing with their PDF's. So, not relevant. Also, SJG's is selling PDF's because it is MORE profitable than dead tree. It didn't stop selling dead tree because selling pdf's somehow hurt their business.

It is more profitable for ANY company to sell digital if the digital & physical prices are somewhere close.

[GreyLord]

Is the leather genuine? I like the idea of books that look like leather, but I have been trying to avoid buying animal products for clothing or decoration if I can avoid it, and would actually prefer some kind of faux leather.

Aergraith, yes it is genuine. They do not offer a faux leather at the printer we use.

Sorry about that!

Steve

Well that sounds good to me. I'm hoping for a great binding on the three that I got. If I recall the 3.5 ones used faux bindings and they looked really good, but hoping the C&C ones look even better.

[GreyLord]

For the record my wife said "no" to upgrading to leather. She was right, I told her how these were the definitive printing because finally all the errata would be addressed, across all 3 books, and she basically said, so that means you will want to use them, since they will be the most accurate? I said, "Yes." She said, "But when you get leather versions, you don't use them. You put them on your shelf, and they stay there as "display". So no, you cannot upgrade to leather, because then you will make the books go unused."

I cannot argue, she is right.

OF course, depending on how long you plan to live...eventually you may use the leather ones because the other ones bindings wore out!!!!

(Then again, with 20 PHB's, that could be while).

IF it's durable leather and done right...that thing could last centuries.

ME...I plan to live forever...so obviously leather was the way to go...

[thenorthman]

In fact Apple and publishers as well as Amazon got in trouble recently for supposedly price gauging of their digital products (it was some news article and I actually received a notice that some of my purchases on Amazon

They got into trouble for Price Fixing as DISTRIBUTORS. Not something that can happen to the author/publisher of an original product. For instance, TLG couldn't get into the same legal trouble for pricing with their PDF's. So, not relevant. Also, SJG's is selling PDF's because it is MORE profitable than dead tree. It didn't stop selling dead tree because selling pdf's somehow hurt their business.

It is more profitable for ANY company to sell digital if the digital & physical prices are somewhere close.

I thought some of the said publishers got in trouble as well for supposedly being in league with them.

I am not saying TLG would of got in trouble nor was I trying to imply that either.

[Traveller]

Breaking away from my homework just a bit here...

The entire fiasco with the price fixing of ebooks was because Apple persuaded many large book publishing houses to switch their business model from one where the retailer sets the selling price of the book to one where publisher sets the selling price of the book. With the Agency model, there was no mechanism to offer discounts, and everyone would pay the same price. It sounds good in theory, but it had side effects that Apple knew about when implementing it. Added profit from not having to discount an ebook aside, the biggest side effect of the Agency model is that it eliminated competitive pricing for ebooks. Without it, Apple could not effectively compete with Amazon.

The only way TLG could get into this kind of trouble is if they had entered into a similar agreement. That's clearly not the case here, as TLG sets a recommended price for both print and PDF versions of their books. In the case of the print books they are regularly discounted on Amazon. In the case of the PDFs, TLG IS the retailer, so they can set the price to anything they wish. If the retailer were Amazon though, then Amazon would have the right to change the price, and TLG couldn't do a thing about it.

[thenorthman]

I only used the example of Apple and Amazon as an example of price fluctuating. I was never saying anything about TLG setting their prices as they see fit.

Thats two people bringing it up....so I will go back and read my post but am pretty sure I didn't imply that TLG was doing anything wrong.

EDIT: Yea think people aren't reading the whole thing....it was long winded.

[moriarty777]

This was an interesting thread. I was able to go to 'level 9' but the regular copies are going to someone else. As these are shaping up to be 'definitive copies', I really wanted these in leather. Will I use / consult them? Yes... of course. But then again, I don't consult the books too often either. In part this is because of PDF. When I prep, I often work at the computer which means I have the PDFs open and several open at once. I can instantly search through them all by key terms and it's just convenient. At the game table when I run a game, I have the books but don't really consult them. I will have all I need printed out in front of me and the screens. The only time I consult the books at the table is to double check spells. I also encourage (require?) that all my regular players have their own copies -- the exception being my wife.

Admittedly, if I could convince her to get her own book, that would be a special kind of awesome. I suppose I should content myself with the idea that she has her own miniature and dice -- a white set and a hot pink and black set of 'punk rocker dice'.

M

[Arduin]

Admittedly, if I could convince her to get her own book, that would be a special kind of awesome. I suppose I should content myself with the idea that she has her own miniature and dice -- a white set and a hot pink and black set of 'punk rocker dice'.

M

You done good!

Now for our next lesson

woman happy.jpeg (31.97 KiB) Viewed 2194 times

[gabriellyon]

I know its a bit early and all but I want to start camping out on my front lawn for when this big box of kickstarted C&C goodness arrives and then call in sick for a week while I go through it all.