Appropriate number of monsters

[Portly Fighter]

Hey guys,

I am creating my first adventure to run for my group. I am planning to use orcs as this will be a 1st level session. My question is this: how many orcs should I use in a single encounter? As one hit die creatures how many PCs are they a match for? Is there something like Pathfinders CR level? The group will have a Paladin, an Assassin, a Rogue, and a Wizard. Thanks in advance guys!

[Treebore]

Hey guys,

I am creating my first adventure to run for my group. I am planning to use orcs as this will be a 1st level session. My question is this: how many orcs should I use in a single encounter? As one hit die creatures how many PCs are they a match for? Is there something like Pathfinders CR level? The group will have a Paladin, an Assassin, a Rogue, and a Wizard. Thanks in advance guys!

Depends. Does the Wizard have the sleep spell? If so, I'd make a tough encounter be 1 Orc per PC +4 additional orcs. If the Sleep spell does max effect the encounter goes easy, if it does minimal, the encounter will be tough, but should still be winnable as long as the dice don't screw over the PC's. General rule of thumb is one HD of the monster for every PC level, then adjust for spells likely to be used.

[Portly Fighter]

Thanks for the response Treebore!

[Relaxo]

A good rule of thumb is one PC death per encounter.






just kidding!

[alcyone]

Also check out Band of Orcs. It's $1.11 on RPGNow or free for Knights of the Crusade. It's instant orc warbands.

Since you are crafting your own encounters, it's a good opportunity to throw in different kinds, not just challenging ones, but different proportions of creatures with more or less hit points, larger groups with few hit dice vs. smaller groups with more, ranged combatants, some spellcasting opponents (but take it very easy at low levels) etc., because you will need to use those encounters to feel out your group.

They are going to be low on healing. Lay On Hands won't cut it for everyone (and why would he heal the assassin). They will have some defense against disease, so go ahead and use it on them.

If you have a Rules Cyclopedia for Basic D&D it has a pretty good formula for scaling encounters that I've found actually works pretty well.

One thing to remember is actions trump almost anything. More monsters = more actions. If the monsters have multiple attack routines, watch out for that too. The side that has the most opportunities to inflict damage has a big advantage. Then look at abilities that can disable the whole party, like stunning attacks, sleep, charm, hold, etc. and take into account their experience and defenses against those things. I don't really take the gloves off until 3rd level or so.

[Arduin]

A good rule of thumb is one PC death per encounter.



just kidding!

At first level that sounds about right. As far as my history of gaming both behind the screen and as a player...

[alcyone]

Simplified summary of the RC balancing rules. This is not an exact science but gets you into the ballpark, where your experience should take over.
A balanced party is assumed, with level appropriate gear.
The monsters are all the same type. If they are not, calculate each individually and do your best.

Party HD = Monster HD is a risky encounter. Monster HD > Party HD = run away. Monster HD = .5 * Party HD = Good fight. Monster HD = .25 * Party HD = a distraction.
Monster HD is adjusted by special abilities, adding half HD per special ability. (So, Orc is 1 HD for purposes of calculations, but a Merman might be 1.5, 2 if mounted). In C&C, you might also add some percentage for HD > 1d8.
Multiply the adjusted monster HD by the number of monsters you plan to use, and compare with the party's HD total.

By these calculations, 1 orc per party member is a risky encounter, however, as Tree pointed out, a spell like sleep at this level changes things, so instead of 4 HD for the party, I might give them a +1 or +2 adjustment, which would be 1 or 2 more orcs. In Tree's judgement it's worth 4 more orcs. If you have the orcs in a tactically advantageous situation, increase their HD total, if they are flatfooted, have no place to move, etc, take that into account. But in terms of when they'll have their next opportunity to heal or rest, if that is in doubt, stick with something less than 1:1.

Note that RC had morale rules, so encounters were usually a little less deadly. If your orcs have a self-preservation instinct and they might conceivably break in battle and surrender or run, then you can have more of them.

Do I actually use this stuff? If I have time I do for encounters I have some doubt about. By now this stuff is more internalized. I still get it "wrong" very often, but as long as parties have free will, it's not all your responsibility. Still, first level people get a little bit of a break in my book.

[Snoring Rock]

A good rule of thumb is one PC death per encounter.






just kidding!

I am Snoring Rock and I approved this message.

[alcyone]

Ye

A good rule of thumb is one PC death per encounter.
just kidding!

I am Snoring Rock and I approved this message.

Yeah... keep killing the assassin until he rolls up a cleric and then throw whatever you want at them.

[Aramis]

Simplified summary of the RC balancing rules. This is not an exact science but gets you into the ballpark, where your experience should take over.
A balanced party is assumed, with level appropriate gear.
The monsters are all the same type. If they are not, calculate each individually and do your best.

Party HD = Monster HD is a risky encounter. Monster HD > Party HD = run away. Monster HD = .5 * Party HD = Good fight. Monster HD = .25 * Party HD = a distraction.
Monster HD is adjusted by special abilities, adding half HD per special ability. (So, Orc is 1 HD for purposes of calculations, but a Merman might be 1.5, 2 if mounted). In C&C, you might also add some percentage for HD > 1d8.
Multiply the adjusted monster HD by the number of monsters you plan to use, and compare with the party's HD total.

This seems right to me. Having the monster HD and abilities = to the PCs is a very dangerous encounter and should not be used as the default encounter. As Treebore said, sleep can change that (and fireball later on) so getting the balance right can be tricky.

Is this your and your group's first C&C adventure, or first adventure at all? If the latter, you may want to make the first encounters fairly easy at first, to get them used to the way it works (maybe a couple of underfed cutpurses in town, or a low morale group of goblins attacking a wagon on the highway).

As Aergraith says, a sizeable portion of the fun/risk/variety of the encounter is playing with things like morale/leadership, tactics, cover, missile fire, spells, area of effect attacks like fire, alarms, possibility of surprise/ambush, etc. etc. These will all change the danger level markedly. There should be ways that PCs can improve their odds of success in every encounter by doing smart things

Be very careful of using spells at low levels if you want to avoid TPKs. One orc shaman with a sleep spell can wipe out most 1st or even 2nd level parties entirely.

Also, don't balance the encounters too minutely so that they no longer feel natural. Some encounters should be easy for the PCs, especially if they use good tactics or get surprise etc. Similarly, on rare occasions the PCs should face an encounter that they either must run away from or get their tactics very very right

[Buttmonkey]

When in doubt, you can always send the monsters in waves. For example, start the fight with 2 or 3 orcs. If the party mows them down, have some orc reinforcements arrive after 2-3 rounds. If the party really struggles with the first 2-3 orcs, you can skip the reinforcements. This allows for a challenging encounter where you can control the pace.

[DMSamuel]

When in doubt, you can always send the monsters in waves. For example, start the fight with 2 or 3 orcs. If the party mows them down, have some orc reinforcements arrive after 2-3 rounds. If the party really struggles with the first 2-3 orcs, you can skip the reinforcements. This allows for a challenging encounter where you can control the pace.

This is the method that I generally use as well. It gives the party a chance to see what the creatures can do and also a chance to figure out what they themselves should be doing. This is especially important with new players, but is just as important sometimes for veteran players as well.

Plus, sending in waves has the added benefit of throwing in a new creature, in the 2nd wave, to shake the players out of their complacency. This works well for groups that yawn at the group of common orcs/kobolds/goblins/wolves/etc.

[Portly Fighter]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies guys!

@Aergraith, those rules are super useful, I may have to snag myself the RC pdf just to have them. As far as the paladin laying on hands for the assassin, I am still trying to figure that out.... I am leaning toward "suggesting" to the player that their background should be as an enforcer of a faith. Kill the heretics and what not, only do it quietly unlike the paladin. Who knows on that one.

@Aramis It is their first C&C adventure and my 1st time CKing. I ran one session of Pathfinder for these guys like 2 years ago, they enjoyed it, but haven't quite figured out that rpgs are a bit more involved than a board game. I am trying to alleviate that by having them create their own god (which will be vetted and approved by me). We are also going to be engaging in a bit of shared worldbuilding to help give them an attachment to the world and I will be having them create 2 or 3 goals that their character has to try and tie them in even more.

@Buttmonkey I think I will probably use your method for the first couple of encounters to help them get their feet wet. They don't quite understand that they can at least attempt anything they can think of. I am hoping after a couple of fights they will start to think more tactically.

Thanks again for the replies everyone! If anyone has more to add, please do I could use all the help I can get!!

[AGNKim]

Hey guys,

I am creating my first adventure to run for my group. I am planning to use orcs as this will be a 1st level session. My question is this: how many orcs should I use in a single encounter? As one hit die creatures how many PCs are they a match for? Is there something like Pathfinders CR level? The group will have a Paladin, an Assassin, a Rogue, and a Wizard. Thanks in advance guys!

Depends. Does the Wizard have the sleep spell? If so, I'd make a tough encounter be 1 Orc per PC +4 additional orcs. If the Sleep spell does max effect the encounter goes easy, if it does minimal, the encounter will be tough, but should still be winnable as long as the dice don't screw over the PC's. General rule of thumb is one HD of the monster for every PC level, then adjust for spells likely to be used.

Tree runs a lot of games, so he knows his shit, but I respectfully disagree. If you makes encounters based upon what the party might have, you are screwing someone over. Say you base the specs of an encounter on the fact that the party will have a sleep spell. Four L1 guys with a sleep spell, you make it interesting by dropping 7 orcs (thinking 2-4 will fall under the Sleep spell). But the party goes another way in the dungeon and drops the Sleep spell somewhere else and shows up to your orc encounter sans Sleep (or any appreciable spell), now the encounter is too hard. I always just plan every encounter for an average group. Maybe monster HD = char HD. So four L1 would face 4HD worth of monsters.

[Portly Fighter]

@AGNKim this is probably going to start a riot on here, but I am toying with the idea of allowing free casting for both clerics and wizards. Rather than prepping spells they can for example cast as many first level spells as they have slots for it. So they will technically have sleep prepared all the time. Do you think this will make the wizard far to powerful?

[Arduin]

Tree runs a lot of games, so he knows his shit, but I respectfully disagree. If you makes encounters based upon what the party might have, you are screwing someone over.

I think it depends on game style. I run a sandbox like world so I NEVER take that stuff into account. But, other styles of play use it and the game world changes based how tough PCs are. The opposite of sandboxing.

[DMSamuel]

@AGNKim this is probably going to start a riot on here, but I am toying with the idea of allowing free casting for both clerics and wizards. Rather than prepping spells they can for example cast as many first level spells as they have slots for it. So they will technically have sleep prepared all the time. Do you think this will make the wizard far to powerful?

No. In fact, if the wizard starts relying too much on a single great spell they are likely to become known as a one-trick-pony, which is a very bad thing in my campaign

Also, in my campaign the wizard has to work pretty darn hard for new spells. I run a low magic setting, usually, so magic is hard to come by and highly guarded, so if the wizard has a bunch of spells it's because they earned them.

[Arduin]

@AGNKim this is probably going to start a riot on here, but I am toying with the idea of allowing free casting for both clerics and wizards. Rather than prepping spells they can for example cast as many first level spells as they have slots for it. So they will technically have sleep prepared all the time. Do you think this will make the wizard far to powerful?

Too powerful? That is somewhat subjective. Doing that does make them FAR more powerful than not doing it. Whether it is C&C, AD&D, 3.x, et al.

[Portly Fighter]

Maybe I will just stick with Vancian magic as written, I am having horrible visions of the wizard casting limited wish 3 times per day........ <shudder>

[Arduin]

Maybe I will just stick with Vancian magic as written, I am having horrible visions of the wizard casting limited wish 3 times per day........ <shudder>

[DMSamuel]

Maybe I will just stick with Vancian magic as written, I am having horrible visions of the wizard casting limited wish 3 times per day........ <shudder>

Haha - Wishes are strange things... often they are granted literally and do horrible things... my players have learned to be careful with such power. I think they would choose not to cast it 3 times per day.

[AGNKim]

In my game, we use the mana system detailed in the CKG. It's an online game and it just easier that way. As the CK, I don't have to know what spells they have. It works well.

[Aramis]

@AGNKim this is probably going to start a riot on here, but I am toying with the idea of allowing free casting for both clerics and wizards. Rather than prepping spells they can for example cast as many first level spells as they have slots for it. So they will technically have sleep prepared all the time. Do you think this will make the wizard far to powerful?

AGNKim makes a good point to set up encounters for an average party. This is especially true where the composition of the group changes week to week. Set it up to soak up that sleep spell and if the wizard does not show up that week, the assassin and cleric are going to have an ...energetic evening

Setting HD for encounters is additionally complicated by the fact you are a new group (as discussed above) and you are beginning at 1st level. If you follow my/Aergraith's recommendation to have HD for an average encounter be some fraction of party HD (say 50%-66%), that is tricky when the party is 1st level. If you attack them with one orc, it may seem to be a bit of a damp squib.

You can fool with this in various ways. Use 1/2 HD monsters, use weakened or easily broken (in morale terms) monsters, etc. In the old days you would hire a dozen or so torch bearers, door openers, link boys and various other "red shirts" to make low level play manageable.

View the first session as more of a training wheels session, err on the side of weaker/easier. Then once they have learned the basics of scouting, front lines, opening doors, missile fire, sleep spells, etc. then have at them with a more difficult encounter or two. Remember also that C&C combats are pretty quick, which means you will get through 3 or 4 in a session. Again, 1st level PCs will have difficulty coming through 4 tough encounters without somebody taking an impromptu "nap", so expect to have an initial rhythm of encounter #1 (hey this is easy), encounter #2 (where's Berus? by the gods, they've killed Berus!), retreat to town to rest, encounter #3 (ok, that was pretty easy again, I guess Berus was just unlucky), encounter 4 (OMG, we all gonna die!) and so on

re: changing the rules. C&C is very amenable to house rules. Everyone fiddles with the rules to some extent. Spontaneous casting is one. It does make the casters more powerful (and more useful) but is not outrageously unbalancing. However, part of the skill of the spellcaster, especially the wizard, is making lemonade out of his lemons (i.e his lesser spells). That creativity can lead to some fun surprises for both players and DM.

It's probably best to run the game "vanilla" for the first session or two. Then change up the spellcasting etc. as suits your style. There is only one rule: have fun. If both you and the players are having fun then keep doing it.

[Zudrak]

Ye

A good rule of thumb is one PC death per encounter.
just kidding!

I am Snoring Rock and I approved this message.

Yeah... keep killing the assassin until he rolls up a cleric and then throw whatever you want at them.

[alcyone]

One strategy for stocking low level dungeons is to just pull encounters out of other well-regarded first level modules. It will usually be giant rats, skeletons, kobolds, maybe goblins, possibly some wild animals (though as we know, a housecat can make short work of a PC). Lots of puzzle rooms and inconveniencing but not necessarily deadly traps. Some challenges such as steep climbs, rope swinging, and the like (but be careful that they are not the only way forward). Bandits with busted equipment and no armor and no spellcasters.

I run a sort of hybrid sandbox. There are some reasonably safe places, especially near civilization that my players know they probably won't get torn apart by a pack of white dragons at first level (though they love to eat horses and camels. Poor Bill). Out in the wild and further from home though, anything can happen. I also have some module locations baked in, the most dangerous of which the party seeks for shelter from the harsh wilderness.

[serleran]

There are a few schools of gaming at different ends of the spectrum. In one, the party makeup is used to determine what and quantities. Another determines by verisimilitude. Others allow for random allocation without regard for either composition.

Personally, I prefer the last one... if the monster says between X and Y number, roll it. They don't need to be in the same encounter. If the party drops in on 40 of them in the same room, maybe they'll be smart enough to run; if not, they can try again with another party and maybe there will be less... or more, or something completely different.

If I were to judge based on the party itself, there are many, many factors to consider but my initial one would be based on XP awards. I would want to determine whether, assuming successful victory, the party deserved that amount of XP for whatever I was doing. If so, then I would determine how many creatures would equate to that. Again, not necessarily all at once.

[Portly Fighter]

Thanks for the replies everyone! You have all given me a ton of useful advice. Seeing as how all of the players are fairly new to rpgs and all of us brand new to C&C in general I am going to stick with C&C RAW. After we play for a while I will come up with house rules as needed.

On the topic of the adventure I am writing, I have decided to use the kid gloves on my players at least for a while. I am going to make use of the "waves" of enemies idea, and if there is an area with to many monsters for the party.....Well they need to learn to run away sometime! I will post updates as my adventure comes together, I am going to begin writing it tonight to have it ready in time for our game on August 2nd. Wish me luck!