Range attacks into melee...

[marroon69]

So I am new to Castles and Crusades and I only have the Player handbook (waiting on kickstarter). I was reading about Ranged attacks, it seems that if you miss the projectile continues with a chance to strike another target. Does that include PC's? Also it mentions only beyond the target....is there a chance to hit something between the target and the archer? Basically firing into melee....just wondering. Thanks in advance

[Arduin]

Does that include PC's?

Sure, why not?

Also it mentions only beyond the target....is there a chance to hit something between the target and the archer?

That depends on what you adjudicate based on where everyone is in relation to the archer. It is left of to the GM as it would be totally impossible to create a rule that reflected every possible scenario. Just remember that combat rounds are ~10 seconds of time where everything happens simultaneously (init order is simply there to facilitate "pretending")

In C&C the GM is REALLY in control. Not the rules. The rules simply give you some tools to help on major, basic points. The Siege Engine gives a simple, broad tool to use in determining outcomes of attempted activities.

[Aramis]

So I am new to Castles and Crusades and I only have the Player handbook (waiting on kickstarter). I was reading about Ranged attacks, it seems that if you miss the projectile continues with a chance to strike another target. Does that include PC's? Also it mentions only beyond the target....is there a chance to hit something between the target and the archer? Basically firing into melee....just wondering. Thanks in advance

My experience of firing into melee rules like C&Cs is, although they are realistic, they don't work great in gameplay terms. They make PC archery almost unplayable, since the darn barbarian charges into every melee, meaning the archer (if he is nice ) sits on his hands every combat for fear of hitting comrades. Meanwhile, NPC goblins etc. never seem to have any such compunctions and fire willy nilly into every melee

All of this is completely realistic, but it is a bit un-fun, with fun being the true core mechanic of any rpg, for me. Thus you may instead want to adopt a shooting penalty for aimed shots, and apply it to both sides' archers. Or, like me, you can just ignore the whole thing and let them shoot free and clear. As long as it applies equally to both sides, it is not unbalancing, although it is unrealistic, but it does return the fun for archer PCs.

[Omote]

My rule is that if a PC fires into melee combat with friendlies, any roll of a natural 1-3 may strike a comrade. Roll to strike against that target with the missed projectile shot. If the second shot hits, it damages the comrade.

I do it this way because there is a combat option and advantage in the CKG which eludes to the fact that something like this was already part of the rules at some point.

~O

[seskis281]

I use a crit rule too - I assume the PCs are good archers and can fire into melee without problem as long as they don't critically fail - I have a nat 1 crit table and "your damage hits your nearby comrade instead" is one of my basic crits that might be rolled if they roll a nat 1.

[jdizzy001]

You could just give them archer disadvantage if firing into a melee with a friendly (roll 2d20 and take the lowest). A miss doesn't always mean a wide shot. It could have hit someone's armor, or was knocked to the ground by a well placed, accidental strike.

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

Same here - a roll of a 1, ranged into a melee is always a hit on a fellow PC.

I use a crit rule too - I assume the PCs are good archers and can fire into melee without problem as long as they don't critically fail - I have a nat 1 crit table and "your damage hits your nearby comrade instead" is one of my basic crits that might be rolled if they roll a nat 1.

[Snoring Rock]

My rule is that if a PC fires into melee combat with friendlies, any roll of a natural 1-3 may strike a comrade. Roll to strike against that target with the missed projectile shot. If the second shot hits, it damages the comrade.

I do it this way because there is a combat option and advantage in the CKG which eludes to the fact that something like this was already part of the rules at some point.

~O

I believe this is how it is written in the PHB. Cannot remember where.

[Arduin]

My rule is that if a PC fires into melee combat with friendlies, any roll of a natural 1-3 may strike a comrade. Roll to strike against that target with the missed projectile shot. If the second shot hits, it damages the comrade.

I do it this way because there is a combat option and advantage in the CKG which eludes to the fact that something like this was already part of the rules at some point.

~O

I believe this is how it is written in the PHB. Cannot remember where.

It is different in the PHB. pg. 174 3rd paragraph

[Omote]

My rule is that if a PC fires into melee combat with friendlies, any roll of a natural 1-3 may strike a comrade. Roll to strike against that target with the missed projectile shot. If the second shot hits, it damages the comrade.

I do it this way because there is a combat option and advantage in the CKG which eludes to the fact that something like this was already part of the rules at some point.

~O

I believe this is how it is written in the PHB. Cannot remember where.

I think it's in the CKG under "combat options."

~O

[alcyone]

I've always thought that C&C's decaying arrow stuff was pretty funny. The better your BtH the more chance you have to hit your friends if they are beyond your target. I was confused at first if it was penalties to the original to-hit roll (which means you can quickly disregard background friends with better AC than your target) or a reroll per friend. It's clarified in the latest PHB that it is a reroll per target.

As far as hitting anyone (friend or foe) between the archer and target, there isn't a rule for that except the cover rules. Anyone in the way is cover. If you miss because of cover, you are probably hitting that cover. That's the CK's call. At longer ranges you might actually be arcing the arrow enough to avoid people between, but that'd be pretty far away. Just because you hit someone doesn't necessarily mean you hit them in a lethal location.

With friends and foes beside the target, it's not defined in the rules. You can go old school and just say, look, you are shooting into "a melee". You aren't really picking a target. If you are aiming at one and miss, you hit someone else at random, weighted by their size. If everyone's fighting something really large, you can probably assume they will aim high and not hit anyone bashing their knees.

In actual play, no CKs I've played with do anything with hitting friends unless they have fumble rules. I usually do all of the above stuff.

[Arduin]

With friends and foes beside the target, it's not defined in the rules. You can go old school and just say, look, you are shooting into "a melee". You aren't really picking a target.

This is how I do it. With a couple people locked in hand-to-hand, they aren't standing still but moving around each other. If the archer is no more than 15' distant (which happens quite often in dungeons) I allow for no hitting your friend. Otherwise you takes your chances.

[JediOre]

I give a -4 to archers firing into melee to hit the target. If they miss then we figure how many targets (except the original target) are within range of becoming a pincushion, roll a die to give a random target a chance to 'catch' the arrow. Re-roll to hit without the -4 penalty and see if the new target has been hit.
There are many times that the PC fighter is in combat with several enemies at once so I see no reason to have the missed missile automatically acquire the PC as the new target.

[mmbutter]

As far as hitting anyone (friend or foe) between the archer and target, there isn't a rule for that except the cover rules.

Actually, the current PHB says that anyone near the line of flight can possibly be hit if the target is missed - that means between the shooter and target as well.

[Arduin]

As far as hitting anyone (friend or foe) between the archer and target, there isn't a rule for that except the cover rules.

Actually, the current PHB says that anyone near the line of flight can possibly be hit if the target is missed - that means between the shooter and target as well.

Verbatim it states "If the target of the attack is missed, the projectile continues in a
straight line and can hit anything in its path."

[serleran]

Random allocation of target as allies and enemies mingle; the AC is awarded a bonus equal to the size of the potentials, using whichever is better, and then adjusted again by number. And I realize this is a math problem; I get used to it.

So....

Actual Target's Size _________ AC Bonus

Small _______________ +2

Medium _____________ +4

Large _______________ +6

+1 per additional 3 targets.

If the actual target is missed, follow a straight line from the source, and determine if the next closest is struck... without any further adjustments from the above.

[Galadrin]

I've always just said something like "ok, you can take the shot, but there is an X% chance that you'll hit your ally..." Then I just roll percentile dice, if they agree to the risk, and a "success" (I mean, rolling equal or less than the percent chance) means an automatic roll of the damage dice to the ally (no to hit roll). If the percentage roll fails, then they roll to hit the enemy as normal, with a penalty for cover (i.e. the ally being in the way). I always make up the percentage on the spot, since in reality the chance and risk would always be different according to each situation. Coming up with an elaborate system to weigh the odds according to size or position is fine for some, but for me it is trying too hard to narrow something down that is (in reality) too variable in practice. The real grist of the situation, and the only part worth emulating, is that there is (a) some given risk and (b) the question for the player as to whether that risk is worth taking.

[marroon69]

So this is the paragraph from the PHB that I was questioning (page 174)

"Ranged weapons that miss their target continue on their path
and can potentially hit another target within close range. If
the target of the attack is missed, the projectile continues in a
straight line and can hit anything in its path. For each ten feet
traveled within close range, the archer should roll a to hit roll
again, but the attacker accrues a -1 penalty for every 10 feet
beyond the original target. The exception to this rule is that
bolts fired from a crossbow continue up to long range, although
the medium and long range modifiers still apply."

Since I read it again...it seems if they miss anything in the line of fire is going to get an attack but those passed the initial target take a -1. I think? I am assuming every target on the same line as the original shot..including a PC.

[mmbutter]

Since I read it again...it seems if they miss anything in the line of fire is going to get an attack but those passed the initial target take a -1. I think? I am assuming every target on the same line as the original shot..including a PC.

Yeah, -1 for every 10 feet past the initial target. I start at the closest target to the shooter and work my way out until it hits, or misses everyone. Archers in my games rarely shoot unless they have a clear line of sight and there are no friendlies behind the target... They take a step or two side to side to adjust the angles.

[Arduin]

So this is the paragraph from the PHB that I was questioning (page 174)

"Ranged weapons that miss their target continue on their path
and can potentially hit another target within close range. If
the target of the attack is missed, the projectile continues in a
straight line and can hit anything in its path. For each ten feet
traveled within close range, the archer should roll a to hit roll
again, but the attacker accrues a -1 penalty for every 10 feet
beyond the original target. The exception to this rule is that
bolts fired from a crossbow continue up to long range, although
the medium and long range modifiers still apply."

Since I read it again...it seems if they miss anything in the line of fire is going to get an attack but those passed the initial target take a -1. I think? I am assuming every target on the same line as the original shot..including a PC.

Once it misses the person that was TARGETED it continues. No one between the archer and the TARGET gets hit. Only beyond the target.

[Snoring Rock]

So this is the paragraph from the PHB that I was questioning (page 174)

"Ranged weapons that miss their target continue on their path
and can potentially hit another target within close range. If
the target of the attack is missed, the projectile continues in a
straight line and can hit anything in its path. For each ten feet
traveled within close range, the archer should roll a to hit roll
again, but the attacker accrues a -1 penalty for every 10 feet
beyond the original target. The exception to this rule is that
bolts fired from a crossbow continue up to long range, although
the medium and long range modifiers still apply."

Since I read it again...it seems if they miss anything in the line of fire is going to get an attack but those passed the initial target take a -1. I think? I am assuming every target on the same line as the original shot..including a PC.

Once it misses the person that was TARGETED it continues. No one between the archer and the TARGET gets hit. Only beyond the target.

That may be where the CKG option comes in with the natural 1-3 on d20. If you miss, and roll 3 or lower, then you roll again for party members (friendlies) between the archer and the target. Then the PHB trajectory rule (pg. 174) comes into play past the target if missed. That's how I play it.

[Arduin]

That may be where the CKG option comes in with the natural 1-3 on d20. If you miss, and roll 3 or lower, then you roll again for party members (friendlies) between the archer and the target. Then the PHB trajectory rule (pg. 174) comes into play past the target if missed. That's how I play it.

Could be. I'm only speaking to the core rules. But, that could be why they wrote the optional rule in the CKG. But, as they didn't put it in the PHB during this last major errata sweep that is questionable too.

[mmbutter]

Once it misses the person that was TARGETED it continues. No one between the archer and the TARGET gets hit. Only beyond the target.

It doesn't say that. It says that on a miss the projectile "can hit anything in its path" - it's path starts at the shooter.

[Arduin]

Once it misses the person that was TARGETED it continues. No one between the archer and the TARGET gets hit. Only beyond the target.

It doesn't say that. It says that on a miss the projectile "can hit anything in its path" - it's path starts at the shooter.

AFTER it misses. So, if arrows do 180's in your game AFTER missing a target, sure, that'll work.

[mmbutter]

AFTER it misses. So, if arrows do 180's in your game AFTER missing a target, sure, that'll work.

I think in the abstract. If it misses, we then determine what happened to it. I don't assume the dice is rolled only at the point of planned impact, but rather that it determines the action of the entire path. If the entire path indicates a miss, then the entire path can be re-evaluated.

In your way of thinking, the player should really roll for a hit for each potential target in the path starting with the closest to him since the die roll indicates when it passes through a particular hex. Sounds like war gamer thinking to me.

[Arduin]

AFTER it misses. So, if arrows do 180's in your game AFTER missing a target, sure, that'll work.

I think in the abstract. If it misses, we then determine what happened to it. I don't assume the dice is rolled only at the point of planned impact, but rather that it determines the action of the entire path.

The way armor class works in the game, much has to be determined when it reaches the target. A person who is naked vs. a person who is in full plate. You don't know until contact, the "hits"/misses. The arrows flight path isn't different because the target is armored... "My way of thinking" is from how armor is treated in D&D style games. Hence, a to hit roll with a spell that ignores armor...

[mmbutter]

The way armor class works in the game, much has to be determined when it reaches the target. A person who is naked vs. a person who is in full plate. You don't know until contact, the "hits"/misses. The arrows flight path isn't different because the target is armored... "My way of thinking" is from how armor is treated in D&D style games. Hence, a to hit roll with a spell that ignores armor...

Going by that, then you should roll for each potential target between the shooter and the actual target first, then.

[mmbutter]

So, in this situation, there is *no* possibility of hitting your own party? Not even on a fumble?

[alcyone]

The foe on the left side arguably has cover from the shooter. If you miss because of that cover penalty, you probably hit a friend in the center. But the rule with decaying chance of hitting beyond your target in the PHB doesn't cover those guys in the center. If you use the optional Close Supporting Fire rule in the CKG, it's your call if this is a "crowded melee". But I think the cover rules are probably enough justification.

"If the target of the attack is missed, the projectile continues in a
straight line and can hit anything in its path."

Continues is the key word here. It goes on to talk about "beyond the original target".

Just talking about what the rules say, which probably has little to do with how you should rule it. The combat rules only cover a small portion of the possibilities.

(edit)
The game doesn't try to model ballistics at all (beyond some pretty inaccurate penalties for range). Most CKs probably won't have the people in the middle get hit. Vaguely realistically with a bow, you'd probably want at least a foot drop if you were going to aim over your friend's heads, and that doesn't usually happen until around 30 yards distance, so certainly within close range you'd probably hit them if they were 5' squares. With 10' squares maybe they are scattered enough for a path (if they are standing still). With other types of projectiles/weapons that would be different. Too much work for me.

[mmbutter]

Sorry, my ruling would still be that the words "can hit anything in it's path" would include any potential target both before and after the actual target. The path contains the section both before and after the original target. It's got nothing to do with modeling ballistics. The initial roll indicates whether or not the shooter placed his shot properly; if he did not place the shot properly, then the mistake can manifest anywhere along the potential path, from immediately before the shooter to somewhere past the target.

Think of the path the arrow is aimed as a quantum wave function - a superposition of many possible paths - that doesn't collapse (and therefore select an actual point of impact) until the dice are rolled. For a real-life example, look at the tropical storm path predictions that are displayed on various weather programs.