Assassin's Poison and More Poison

[T1Hound]

For an assassin making his own poison, what should the challenge rating be?

A PC assassin makes a poison. What modifiers are used for the challenge rating? Is it just his INT or INT + Level? If INT + Level the NPCs (or PCs) may have a tough time making the save. I.e., 5 level assassin with a INT bonus of +2 would make NPCs have a save vs 19 or 25 - if primary or secondary.

Is there anything in the PHB which shows the 'standard' added bonus for the poisons listed for the assassin class?

Also, would a wyvern add only it's hit die to challenge for PCs?

[Treebore]

Its a class ability, they get to add level, no one else would. The CL, well thats a bit harder. I had to do my own "system" by first assigning a CL to the poisons we do have. I made it easy on me by just giving a CL of 3 to the weakest, and upping the CL of each one after by 3 more. So those go CL 3, 6, 9, etc... I then "eyeball" new poisons to see where they fit in best with the poisons we already have. Or, if I know who made the poison, I assign their HD/Level as the CL for that poison as far as a Save goes. For actually manufacturing, I stick to the CL of 3 general guideline by eyeballing it.

[T1Hound]

Thanks Tim!

And that is not modified by the assassin's ability score?

(I'm de-programming myself from 3.x / Pathfinder)

[Treebore]

Thanks Tim!

And that is not modified by the assassin's ability score?

(I'm de-programming myself from 3.x / Pathfinder)

Any save, and any check, that isn't someone elses Class Skill, always adds level, attribute modifiers, and any applicable magic bonus, Bard Bonus, and situational modifiers the CK thinks should apply.

[DMSamuel]

I have my own poison system, but it is very much like Tree's way of doing it. I am actually in the middle of converting my homebrew 2e D&D poison handbook (which is derived from the poison and herb netbooks) into C&C usable guidelines. When I get done I will submit it for use to society members.

[Captain_K]

Looking forward to your poison system - don't forget to use the KISS principal please.

The CnC system is pretty basic with room to modify but also with some set rules.. some of which do not make a great deal of sense to me. The basic poisons and the special ones in the MT seem to imply set affects and power by the brew (poison). Basic natural poisons when brewed correctly would have certain effects and powers but why would they be 20x more powerful because a 20th lvl assassin made them vs a 1st lvl assassin? By this I mean having a -20 to the save vs -1. I think you can link the basic poison cost and powers to it's basic nature like the PH seems to do. Skills needed to brew, ingredients, knowledge, costs, etc. all keep the powerful stuff out of reach for lower level PCs. The CKG is silent on poison I think and there is a bit more in the MT. I think the new versions of both books should harmonize these sections, but no major changes are expected.

The PH does not explicitly state an INT roll is needed to make a poison, only to identify a random poison on hand. You just need tools, money and time to make any poison.. I think I would rather require a roll to make the poison (getting harder as the poison gets more powerful - like Tree notes I think) but the poison when made is only slightly more affective than its natural ranking CL because of the level of the maker. Anyway.. detail, details, detail, it would be nice to see some full write ups of your systems to make, use, and save against.

Adding extra punch to an assassin, thief or even's Druid's blade or arrow should not be made too difficult and could be a nice dimension to the game. The morality of poison use to kill the evil enemy always confused me... relative to the morality of a plated Paladin with holy avenger cutting down an foe.. I guess I must be Chaotic Good.. oh well, anyway.. good luck I think I will be dealing more and more with poison over the next few months..

A final question to debate, "Can a professional alchemist make poisons (not necessarily all) and still not be an assassin? How about a druid mixing up a soup of poisonous mushrooms to feed some angry ogres destroying his grove?"

Capt K

[DMSamuel]

Looking forward to your poison system - don't forget to use the KISS principal please.

Yes - the 'system' is simple. The complexity comes in depending on how much detail you want in your poison making (that is, ingredients) and use. I have that as part of the poison write up, though, and the 'rules' or 'system' are simple.

The CnC system is pretty basic with room to modify but also with some set rules.. some of which do not make a great deal of sense to me. The basic poisons and the special ones in the MT seem to imply set affects and power by the brew (poison). Basic natural poisons when brewed correctly would have certain effects and powers but why would they be 20x more powerful because a 20th lvl assassin made them vs a 1st lvl assassin?

My system is based on the poison, not the level of the maker or user. That means that a 1st level assassin can, theoretically, attempt to make some very powerful poisons, but of course the consequences for messing up can be deadly, as the assassin would be exposed to the effects of the poison. Also, very powerful poisons have, as a general rule, ingredients from some very powerful venomous creatures or very rare toxic plants - generally speaking a low level assassin would not readily have access to these ingredients, so you won't necessarily have a 1st level assassin running around with a poison that kills on contact.

The PH does not explicitly state an INT roll is needed to make a poison, only to identify a random poison on hand. You just need tools, money and time to make any poison.. I think I would rather require a roll to make the poison (getting harder as the poison gets more powerful - like Tree notes I think) but the poison when made is only slightly more affective than its natural ranking CL because of the level of the maker. Anyway.. detail, details, detail, it would be nice to see some full write ups of your systems to make, use, and save against.

To mix a poison requires 3 things:
1) Recipe
2) Ingredients
3) Ability

The 3rd item on the list, ability, is where a siege check will come in and will be based on the PCs abilities in this area. Quests can be undertaken to obtain the 2nd item on the list, ingredients. And of course, the first item on the list can have a number of avenues for discovery.

I am still playtesting and tinkering this a bit with C&C and so I am not done yet writing everything up. I will get there eventually.

The morality of poison use to kill the evil enemy always confused me... relative to the morality of a plated Paladin with holy avenger cutting down an foe.. I guess I must be Chaotic Good.. oh well, anyway.. good luck I think I will be dealing more and more with poison over the next few months..

I think the morality issue comes in when the poison causes a slow and painful death, which is akin to torture. If one agrees with the premise that torture is immoral, then you can see the direct line from poison use to evil.

A final question to debate, "Can a professional alchemist make poisons (not necessarily all) and still not be an assassin? How about a druid mixing up a soup of poisonous mushrooms to feed some angry ogres destroying his grove?"

In my poison guidelines I do give some instruction regarding classes other than assassin mixing and using poisons - druid is one such obvious choice (herbalism and botanical knowledge being assumed). Depending on the setting, one could also make the case for barbarians (using shamanistic drugs can easily lead to discovery of poisons), and bards (with their lore and jack-of-all-trades style archetypes), and also rangers (once again, herbs and plant knowledge playing a part).

Because I can easily imagine a sufficient reason for a variety of races or classes to have knowledge of poisons and poison-making, I will include guidelines for use, applying to weapons, mixing, etc.

[Captain_K]

Looking forward to it, don't take too long.. do you have "Taking the sting our of poison by Chris Landsea from a Dragon Jan 1984 or "Poison From AA to XX" by Charles Sagui Dec 1979

[DMSamuel]

Looking forward to it, don't take too long..

Ha - I'll try to get something posted up by the end of next weekend (not tomorrow, but the following Sunday).

do you have "Taking the sting our of poison by Chris Landsea from a Dragon Jan 1984 or "Poison From AA to XX" by Charles Sagui Dec 1979

I have all the dragon mags, yes. I have picked them through and have also looked at ingredients/component lists for spells to inform the way that creature body parts could be used to good effect (well, plus my biology background as well helps there). I definitely have these articles as a foundation knowledge - I'll make sure to re-read them again as well.

[serleran]

I still prefer my antiquated system first "released" in the old M&T Web Enhancement. Alas, I no longer seem able to locate it.

[Treebore]

I still prefer my antiquated system first "released" in the old M&T Web Enhancement. Alas, I no longer seem able to locate it.

I have it, can I post it?

[serleran]

I still prefer my antiquated system first "released" in the old M&T Web Enhancement. Alas, I no longer seem able to locate it.

I have it, can I post it?

Sure. My personal preference and that of others are often at ends but it never hurts to have something to look at to then say "not the way I want to do it."

[Treebore]

Poison—A Primer
By Robert Doyel

Note: This was written before the finalization of M&T, so things will need to be fixed. Also, any reference to a creature not appearing in M&T needs to be removed, as well.

All poisons are listed by Name, which is the poison's common name; there may be alterations to this name to fit the Castle Keepers needs and wants, to provide for more lively or interesting names. This is followed by its Source, whether Monster, meaning it can be extracted from a creature of the same name; Plant, meaning that it is a naturally growing herb or plant life; Mineral, meaning it is not drawn from a living source, or is a metallic element found naturally; or of a Miscellaneous source, meaning the poison is not one, or is more than one, of the previous listings. Delivery, being the method of poisoning, ranging from Ingestion, meaning an exposed creature must digest the substance; Contact, meaning a victim simply must be in physical touch with the substance; Inhalation, meaning the substance must be breathed to be effective; and Injury, meaning the victim must be struck with a forceful blow, causing immediate entrance of the toxin into the bloodstream. Following this, is the poison's Extraction, which is a modifier on all Dexterity checks to avoid being self-poisoned, save by those characters that possess the Poison Use class ability. Ending the listing is Damage; this rating is typically a range of Hit Points, but may also be attribute damage, Death, or other effects such as Unconsciousness. In all cases, a Constitution save is allowed to resist the effects of the poison, with a difficulty listed (DL); success reduces damaging effects by half. Finally, the Gold Piece cost of a single dosage is recorded.

Aboleth Mucus: Monster, Inhaled, +4, Suffocation 3 hours, DL 8, 5000

Achaierai Black Cloud Vapor: Monster, Contact/Inhaled, +6, Insanity 3 hours, DL 6, 1000

Alcohol (Moderate): Plant, Ingested, --, Intoxication 2d4 hours, DL 1, 1

Alcohol (Severe): Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4+1 Dex/Wis/Int, Unconsciousness (Con save to avoid Death; Con save to avoid Blindness), DL 3, 5

-- Special Rule for Alcohol: Each drink beyond the character's Constitution modifier (or 1 if the character suffers a penalty or has no bonus), results in a -2 penalty on the Constitution save to avoid damaging effects. Dwarves double the number of drinks they may consume before suffering cumulative penalty. Characters which have a penchant for drinking, at the Castle Keepers discretion may also receive the Dwarven benefit, which may apply to a Dwarf, as well, essentially tripling the Dwarven character's Con modifier for this purpose.

Ankheg Acid: Monster, Contact, +4, 1d4, DL 3, 50

Aranea Venom: Monster, Injury, +7, 1d4 Strength, DL 3, 400

Arsenic: Mineral, Ingested, +8, Death, DL 10, 5000

Athach Venom: Monster, Injury, +5, 1d6 Strength, DL 14, 3500

Black Adder Venom: Monster (Animal), Injury, +2, 2d6 for 1 round, DL 4, 100

Black Lotus Extract: Plant, Contact, +8, Death, DL 6, 3500

Bloodroot: Plant, Injury, --, 1d4 Con + 1d3 Wis, DL 3, 750

Caustic Alkali: Mineral, Contact, --, 1d4 for 1 round, DL 1, 15

Chuul Gland Extract: Monster, Contact/Ingested, +7, Paralysis, DL 11, 2500

Couatl Venom: Monster, Injury, +8, Death, DL 9, 7500

Death’s Bloom Poison: Plant, Ingested, +5, 1d6 Wisdom, DL 4, 500

Deathblade: Miscellaneous, Injury, +10, 20 for 2 rounds, DL 10, 4500

Digester Acid: Monster, Contact, +7, 4d8 for 1 round, DL 8, 3750

Dragon Bile: Monster, Contact, +Age*2, Death, DL Age*2, Age*500

Drider Venom: Monster, Injury, +6, Paralysis 1d2 turns, DL 6, 1250

Drow Sleep Poison: Monster/Miscellaneous, Injury, +5, Unconsciousness as Sleep spell, DL 1d6+1, 500.

Ettercap Venom: Monster, Injury, +8, Death, DL 5, 1500

Formian (Myrmarch) Poison: Monster, Injury, +8, 3d4 Strength, 2500

Formian (Taskmaster) Poison: Monster, Injury, +2, 1d4 Strength, DL 6, 400

Formian (Warrior) Poison: Monster, Injury, +2, 1d4 Strength, DL 4, 150

Foxglove (Toxic Dosage): Plant, Ingested, --, 10 for 1 round, DL 5, 50

Giant Anemone Venom: Monster (Animal), Injury, +8, Paralysis 2d6 rounds, DL 6, 300

Giant Ant Acid Extract: Monster (Animal), Contact/Injury, +4, 2d4 for 1 round, DL 4, 175

Giant Bee Poison: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d2 rounds, DL 2, 75

Giant Wasp Poison: Monster (Animal), Injury, +4, 5d4 for 1 round, DL 4, 150

Gorgon Breath Vapor: Monster, Inhaled, +12, Petrification (as Flesh to Stone), DL 8, 4000

Hellebore: Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4 Constitution, DL 3, 250

Lich Dust: Monster, Ingested, --, Death, DL 18, 15000

Locoweed: Plant, Ingested, --, Confusion, DL 6, 400

Malyss Root Paste: Plant, Contact, +4, 2d4 Dexterity, DL 6, 550

Medusa Poison: Monster, Contact/Injury, +2, Death, DL 6, 3500

Mohrg Ichor: Monster, Contact, +5, Paralysis, DL 14, 4750

Naga (Dark) Poison: Monster, Injury, +12, Unconsciousness 2d4 min (spellcasters lose spellcasting ability for 1d2 days), DL 9, 6000

Naga (Guardian) Venom: Monster, Contact or Injury, +12, Death (if Contact) or 1d6 (if Injury), DL 11, 7000

Naga (Spirit) Venom: Monster, Injury, +12, 1d3 for 1d6 rounds, DL 9, 6000

Naga (Water) Venom: Monster, Injury, +12, 1d4 for 1 round, DL 7, 4000

Nightcrawler Poison: Monster, Contact/Injury, +12, Death, DL 25, 15000

Opium: Plant, Inhaled, +4, 1d6 Intelligence & Hallucinations, DL 6, 500

Phase Spider Venom: Injury, +5, Death, DL 7, 2500

Poison Ivy: Plant, Contact, --, -1 to Attack, Damage, AC and Ability Checks, DL 3, 125

Pseudodragon Poison: Monster, Injury, +4, Unconsciousness 1d6 days (each day a Con save to avoid Death), DL 2, 2750

Purple Worm Poison: Monster, Injury, +12, Death, DL 15, 7500

Ragweed Pollen: Plant, Inhaled, --, -1 to Attack, Damage, AC and Ability Checks, DL 1, 50

Sassone Leaf Residue: Plant, Contact, +2, 1d6 for 2 rounds. DL 2, 125

Shadow Essence: Monster, Injury, +10, 1 Strength, DL 3, 150

Slithervine Pollen: Plant, Inhaled, --, Blindness, DL 5, 300

Spider Eater Venom: Monster, Injury, +2, Paralysis 1d6 weeks, DL 4, 2000

Striped Toadstool: Plant, Ingested, --, Hallucinations, DL 4, 125

Tendriculos Gastric Fluid: Monster, Contact/Ingested, +6, Paralysis 1d6 rounds, DL 9, 450

Terinav Root: Plant, Contact, --, 2d6 Dexterity, DL 5, 500

Toadstool: Plant, Ingested, --, 1d4 Constitution, DL 3, 500

Vermin Venoms--
Small: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 1d3 for 1d3 rounds, DL 1, 10
Medium: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d6 rounds, DL 3, 25
Large: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d6 for 2d4 rounds, DL 5, 120

Violet Fungus Poison: Monster/Plant, Contact/Injury, +4, 1d4 Strength/Constitution (Permanent), DL 3, 1200

Viper Venom--
Small: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 1d3 for 1d3 rounds, DL 1, 10
Medium: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d4 for 1d6 rounds, DL 3, 25
Large: Monster (Animal), Injury, --, 2d6 for 2d4 rounds, DL 5, 120

Wyvern Poison: Monster, Injury, +7, Death, DL 7, 3500

Xill Venom: Monster, Injury, +4, Paralysis 1d4 rounds, DL 5, 1250

The list is not 100% complete, nor are the numbers necessarily accurate. I hope it finds to be somewhat useful, however.

[Captain_K]

Loved the list, thanks for sharing and doing all that work, have not looked at it in great detail, but three questions, I think I know the answer but I'd like a confirmation and might be good to note:
1) Give examples of the bonus (and occasional minus) to the DEX to extract.. so a +12 to extract is "its easy to get this poison WITHOUT poisoning yourself"?
2) On this topic you almost "pun" "save the classes with poison use..." don't use "save" to describe a saving throw group. You I assume are saying this + or minus to the dex check is ONLY for those without a class ability to use poison.. do they do it automatically? None are easier or harder?
3) Guardian Naga, if it touches you, you die, but if it touches the inside of a wound you only take d6 damage? Is there not some residual on the outside of a wound?

Thanks, Captain K

[serleran]

Loved the list, thanks for sharing and doing all that work, have not looked at it in great detail, but three questions, I think I know the answer but I'd like a confirmation and might be good to note:
1) Give examples of the bonus (and occasional minus) to the DEX to extract.. so a +12 to extract is "its easy to get this poison WITHOUT poisoning yourself"?
2) On this topic you almost "pun" "save the classes with poison use..." don't use "save" to describe a saving throw group. You I assume are saying this + or minus to the dex check is ONLY for those without a class ability to use poison.. do they do it automatically? None are easier or harder?
3) Guardian Naga, if it touches you, you die, but if it touches the inside of a wound you only take d6 damage? Is there not some residual on the outside of a wound?

Thanks, Captain K

1) The Extraction modifier is the difficulty.

2) There is no pun. Save means except. Therefore, someone with the Poison Use ability does not have to check for self-poisoning if they failed the check to Extract.

3) Don't remember but that's probably an error and might need to be reversed. That was, what, 10 years ago?

And, I may even have some of that wrong.

Just do with it whatever you want and cut all the "wordy crap." I don't blame you.

[Captain_K]

I just re-read the M&T back section on Poison, other than the cost to make each poison is totally escaping me, the rules are pretty simple and straight forward, leaving open more detailed rule making and varied poisons. It does specifically note anyone can make poison but the assassin gets a bonus and is safest doing it.

Ended up with at least one assassin in our new group, will be playing with this stuff more and more, looking forward to the fuller write ups - thanks!

[Captain_K]

Doses and durations.. so a "batch of poison" or I would assume a small vile.. coats 4v daggers or 1 short sword.. that would be my old rule of thumb.. that blade remains toxic for many uses, giving a +1 to save after every successful hit and the blade swinger makes a dex save, with a cumulative -1 (in lock step with the +1 to save for the victims), to continue to have a poisoned blade. Eventually the save will be failed and the blade will no longer have any appreciable poison left on it. I also recall, one good hit with the poisoned item and its done, but that assumes you're using the creature's body as a wet rag to cleanse the blade.. seems too fast.

Thoughts? Rules in CnC I've missed?

[Treebore]

I think my personal rule comes form 1E AD&D, where each hit adds a +1, after the first, to the targets saves, and after the 4th successful hit, too much of it is already wiped off from the previous blows to remain effective.