Monk disarm

[InFurno]

The current phb does not list the monk class as capable of disarming. It seems like the monk class would be particularly competent at this task resulting from typically martial arts training. Any thoughts?

[Go0gleplex]

In terms of disarming, the thinking is seemingly focused on weapon vs weapon much like in the swashbuckling type movies (Three Musketeers for instance) and not so much hand to hand. In terms of the monk or rather martial arts, disarming an opponent is usually the result of a hold, arm bar, or joint lock that forces the opponent to drop their weapon due to pain or numbness. Several techniques also allow the martial artist to turn the weapon against the opponent as well.

In that line of thinking, I would consider it a grapple type of attack. If you truly want to allow some sort of disarm attempt, then, off the cuff, maybe a -2 penalty to the Grapple Attack since the martial artist would be making what amounts to an aimed attack and an opposing STR check to see if the martial artist can force the opponent to drop their weapon as a result of the grapple.

[Arduin]

The current phb does not list the monk class as capable of disarming. It seems like the monk class would be particularly competent at this task resulting from typically martial arts training. Any thoughts?

Unarmed vs. armed disarm attempts usually end in injury or death for the "martial artist" if against a trained "fighter". That's why weapons like the sai were developed. Actual martial arts are not like you see in the movies.

[Treebore]

Monks are very good at Grappling. They even get a +2 to all related checks. Read up on the Grappling rules. That is where your "Disarming" essentially, but not precisely, takes place.

[Omote]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

[Treebore]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

Yeah, why they limited it, and still allow an Assassin and Cleric to do it, but not a Bard, Monk, etc... to do it certainly does not seem to make any kind of logical sense. Plus, when a Monk does it "Unarmed" I'd allow them to add their +2 Grappling bonus. Plus the Combat Maneuver is somewhat poorly written. It appears to be resolved in a similar manner as Grappling, Overbearing, etc... but they certainly made it about as clear as mud.

[Arduin]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

I do the same but, they have to be armed.

[Go0gleplex]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

I do the same but, they have to be armed.

Aren't they always armed. They have two after all. ( I HAD to say it...)

[Treebore]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

I do the same but, they have to be armed.

Aren't they always armed. They have two after all. ( I HAD to say it...)

Starting at 3rd level, with the Iron Fists ability, their attack becomes equal to a +1 Magic Weapon. So yes, they are always "armed", humor or no humor.

[Arduin]

I just give the monks the ability to Disarm like the other warrior classes.

~O

I do the same but, they have to be armed.

Aren't they always armed. They have two after all. ( I HAD to say it...)

Good one! But, no not for the purpose of what I'm talking about.

[Captain_K]

In the latest PH p176 it defines the disarm attempt mechanics as a simple "to hit" against AC 18 + the level (or HD) of the target + the target's DEX bonus. Thus, the "level" and skill of the target are evenly taken into account. On the other side of the roll, the "to hit" allows the attacker's level, str, etc. It seems balanced AND the warrior classes are balanced by their to hit bonus.. seems the wizard who tries is simply "crappy at it".. as the game says, "we're siege engine based anything can be tried".. this is just a set of per-described, and simple, rules for the try.

As noted above, the inclusion of thieves, assassins and clerics in "some of the fighter types" but omits the barbarian, bard, monk and Druid is kind of arbitrary. Since disarm seems like a simple game option all can try, and not class noted in any class, I'd be inclined to follow the rules and let everyone try.

Hey, if it gets out of hand, well, tweak the rules ;} this is CnC after all.

The game is fantasy, the monk is not some black belt against some plate mailed medieval times warrior. The monk is SUPPOSED to go toe to toe against a Knight on Horseback. The game builds, and I believe, assumes the monk who does real damage with a bare hand {up to d10, which can act as a +4 weapon, and has a body AC bonus of +5 (yes its DEX driven)} is supposed to be fighting without a weapon against weapons and armor on a regular basis. So for everyone BUT the monk "hand-to-hand" is a only that, when a weapon is involved, the weapon should have a huge advantage, but the MONK should be exempt from said weapon vs hand penalties.. their hands, feet, etc. have become weapons in CnC game terms. I could find no EXPLICIT pronouncement of this in CnC, but I recall it was in some version of DnD.

Aside: Jujutsu 日本古流柔術 is an entire art against "Samurai" developed by many over a long time - 1333–1573.. it worked or it's practitioners would have died out - back then it was not blow-hards telling folks what they thought they could do.. it was do or die.

[Treebore]

In the latest PH p176 it defines the disarm attempt mechanics as a simple "to hit" against AC 18 + the level (or HD) of the target + the target's DEX bonus. Thus, the "level" and skill of the target are evenly taken into account. On the other side of the roll, the "to hit" allows the attacker's level, str, etc. It seems balanced AND the warrior classes are balanced by their to hit bonus.. seems the wizard who tries is simply "crappy at it".. as the game says, "we're siege engine based anything can be tried".. this is just a set of per-described, and simple, rules for the try.

As noted above, the inclusion of thieves, assassins and clerics in "some of the fighter types" but omits the barbarian, bard, monk and Druid is kind of arbitrary. Since disarm seems like a simple game option all can try, and not class noted in any class, I'd be inclined to follow the rules and let everyone try.

Hey, if it gets out of hand, well, tweak the rules ;} this is CnC after all.

The game is fantasy, the monk is not some black belt against some plate mailed medieval times warrior. The monk is SUPPOSED to go toe to toe against a Knight on Horseback. The game builds, and I believe, assumes the monk who does real damage with a bare hand {up to d10, which can act as a +4 weapon, and has a body AC bonus of +5 (yes its DEX driven)} is supposed to be fighting without a weapon against weapons and armor on a regular basis. So for everyone BUT the monk "hand-to-hand" is a only that, when a weapon is involved, the weapon should have a huge advantage, but the MONK should be exempt from said weapon vs hand penalties.. their hands, feet, etc. have become weapons in CnC game terms. I could find no EXPLICIT pronouncement of this in CnC, but I recall it was in some version of DnD.

Aside: Jujutsu 日本古流柔術 is an entire art against "Samurai" developed by many over a long time - 1333–1573.. it worked or it's practitioners would have died out - back then it was not blow-hards telling folks what they thought they could do.. it was do or die.

Yep, fantasy Monks are meant to stand toe to toe against Fighters with their +5 Swords and Wizards with their mighty spells, while appearing "unarmed". Which is why they have powers such as their Iron Fist. When your body, basically, is considered equal to a magic weapon, your never actually "unarmed". At least upon reaching third level and beyond.

[Arduin]

but the MONK should be exempt from said weapon vs hand penalties.. their hands, feet, etc. have become weapons in CnC game terms. I could find no EXPLICIT pronouncement of this in CnC, but I recall it was in some version of DnD.

Naw. In my game a monk can't put his hand in the camp fire and keep it there. Nor can his forearms stop the cut of a sword. That' why I have sai's and such in my weapon selection.

[Treebore]

but the MONK should be exempt from said weapon vs hand penalties.. their hands, feet, etc. have become weapons in CnC game terms. I could find no EXPLICIT pronouncement of this in CnC, but I recall it was in some version of DnD.

Naw. In my game a monk can't put his hand in the camp fire and keep it there. Nor can his forearms stop the cut of a sword. That' why I have sai's and such in my weapon selection.

C&C Monks have a pretty extensive list of weapons to use as well. I don't see a "Sai" in there, but it would be easy enough to add, and give the Monk a bonus to any attempts to disarm with them.

I don't get why they felt a need to spell out that Iron Fist "improves" all the way up to a "+5", when they then make it absolutely meaningless when they state that the Monk gets no benefit from it what so ever. Is there something about a +1 Magic Weapon versus a +5 Weapon that I am missing? Meaning, once you completely make the bonus' meaningless? Apparently it makes some kind of sense to Trolls, but not me. My understanding is that a Magic Weapon is a Magic Weapon, unless other things are taken into account, such as the bonus given.

[Arduin]

C&C Monks have a pretty extensive list of weapons to use as well. I don't see a "Sai" in there, but it would be easy enough to add, and give the Monk a bonus to any attempts to disarm with them.

Yes, I give a standard +3 for that weapon (if prof with it, which monks are). It is THE weapon a monk uses against "sword wielding clods".

[Go0gleplex]

If you are good enough as a martial artist, fighting with a weapon is almost no different than fighting without. Many hand maneuvers are simply a weapon maneuver without the weapon. Does this mean you can parry a sword? HELL NO!! But, what you train to do is step in fast enough to parry the arm wielding the sword, redirect the blow, or perfect your sense of timing to a degree to be just out of weapon reach, then storm in immediately after before the attacker recovers from the swing. No, not many people can do this in reality...but it is possible and does happen and the guys that can do it can inflict crippling damage in that instant. I trained with a couple guys who practiced this with steel weapons (though no edge for safety.) Then again, a marital artist with a stick can defeat the world's best swordsman if they are skilled enough. (this happened historically to the spanish when the invaded the phillipines. The escrima guys cleaned their clocks in a sword fight until the spanish came up with a reverse wrist snap maneuver, at which point the escrima folks started getting their ass handed to them.)

[Captain_K]

I interpret the +magic bonus as: "if the monster needs a +1 magic weapon or better to hit it then a monk of 3rd lvl or higher can hit it and do damage with its fists." If a Solar or some similar highly magic being pops up to duke it out with a 17th lvl monk and the Solar needs +5 or better weapons to harm it, well then the monk will bloody its nose (well until it heals itself at will... got I hated those things).

There is a Monk weapon thread in here not too far back.. I suggest the Sai is Main Gauche. Keep in mind, a sai was originally a farm implement, small hand held pitch fork for moving about grasses and the like.. but its pretty old and pretty simple.

Never said the monk was "bullet proof" or fire resistant only that his/her training allows him/her to fight unarmed as if armed. Combat is not so specific as to worry about X item against Y item or this armor vs that ranged weapon.. you can do that if you like, but keep it general keep it moving, the mechanics are simple.. play on.. the monk fights with its hands and feet.

Sounds like a good one for the Trolls to consider noting explicitly in Rev 7 of the PH.. or slipping a note into the CK guide on the topic (monk), but this crew is not moving toward too much consensus.. but then, do we ever? We'd argue over free beer!

[Lurker]

Now the question is .... how do you disarm a monk ...

Sorry I had to go there ...

[Treebore]

Now the question is .... how do you disarm a monk ...

Sorry I had to go there ...

A Feather Edged weapon.

[Captain_K]

That's what the sword is for.... I tried, but I cannot pun away a leg.. ;}

I just thought of another good argument, this is a fantasy monk, his hands are weapons and he can disarm with hand, foot or even teeth if you want.. why, because a Mage can disarm with spells, a cleric can hold person, a druid warp wood or heat metal, an illusionist can turn your sword into a snake (or at least make you think so..) and they can all use their "non-weapons" to disarm... its fantasy and magic and fun.. so let the monk, if he rolls well enough, kick the two handed sword out of the hands of the guy in plate mail... its a game...

[Mark Hall]

IMO, Monks always have a weapon, always do monk damage when armed with a monk weapon, and always get the benefit of any weapon they are using. A monk can disarm just like anyone else.