Silent Image spell

[Snoring Rock]

How would you rule on an illusionist using silent image to create a floating weapon and hit a monster with it? The damage is mental so there would be a save. What damage would you allow?

[Arduin]

Based on amount of damage dealt by other 1st level Illusionist spells... Zero points of damage.

[alcyone]

Damage would be as the (normal) weapon portrayed. Note that the illusionist must be familiar with the weapon for it to be fully effective. So a ballista or trebuchet is probably not going to do full damage, but a staff or dagger probably would. OTOH, the effect duplicates Spiritual Weapon, which the illusionist doesn't know, so it could do less.

I think a fair guideline might be to limit damage to what falling in a spiked pit the size of the spell effect would be, so 50' at first level. (that is, if 40 foot cube means 40 feet on a side. I think that's the intent.) Or, maybe nerfier, perhaps the maximum damage they can cause by the most damaging spell they can cast at their current level.

Silent Image and Phantasmal Force can be challenging to rule.

[Snoring Rock]

The spell description states that creatures who view it, believe it, and can suffer damage from it. Hit point damage is suffered from damage to mind/psyche. It disappears if the opponent makes the saving throw.

Since it is not a fire and forget spell like magic missile, or spiritual weapon (needs no concentration) I thought I may give it damage like a magic missile or better yet, as the weapon chosen as an illusion, but it must be a weapon the illisionist is proficient with perhaps. This one was left wide open. I have a game tonight and the player will want to use that spel for sure and I know how they plan to use it.

[Arduin]

In that case (spell description rules here) give it the Illusionsist's BtH (otherwise it won't look realistic, include the non-prof penalty) give it the proper weapon type damage.

That should keep it under control...

[Kayolan]

After consulting the CKG for ideas...

I'd rule that the image is plasmic and therefore very delicate, taking only 1 hit point of damage and the weapon would disappear.

The damage of the weapon would be the same as normal. I would only allow a save to disbelieve if the weapon is destroyed. Thereafter the damage sustained to anyone still alive by the plasmic weapon that made their save would be undone.

[Mark Hall]

I've done similar before; I'd allow it to do regular weapon damage (which is why most people prefer to conjure a monster to go with the weapon). The target would get a save the first time struck, with a bonus because there's no sound.

[alcyone]

Since it is not a fire and forget spell like magic missile, or spiritual weapon (needs no concentration)

It does require concentration to move it, which I think would be necessary for a weapon to attack. Actually, duration just says Concentration, so I think for the image to even exist requires concentration.

[Captain_K]

I've got a new Illusionist and these spells will be the bane of my existence in the near future I fear. I tried to explain to him, his spells should be imaginative BUT they cannot crush the world. Mimic other spells of the same level, damage of typical things around you.. etc... but don't try to push it and we won't fight.. each spell will not "save the day" or kill all the bad guys..

[Mark Hall]

I've got a new Illusionist and these spells will be the bane of my existence in the near future I fear. I tried to explain to him, his spells should be imaginative BUT they cannot crush the world. Mimic other spells of the same level, damage of typical things around you.. etc... but don't try to push it and we won't fight.. each spell will not "save the day" or kill all the bad guys..

I did something similar. I let the illusionist pick an effect of similar level that he was going for, how he was representing it, and then gave them at least 1 save to resist it (sometimes 2, if the effect would normally give a save). If he was trying something over the level, then there would be penalties, as would there be if the spell lacked a sense that was necessary to his idea functioning. He had to maintain concentration on "room illusions", but they were highly flexible "anyspells" that would let him avoid a lot of problems, without being sovereign.

[Arduin]

I've got a new Illusionist and these spells will be the bane of my existence in the near future I fear.

To me as a GM, the situation isn't really any different from past versions of "D&D". It has always been a case of adjudication/refereeing for Illusion spells. Just use the basic rulings you have developed over the decades as a GM in D&D.

[Captain_K]

I've always found several of the illusionist spells difficult to deal with, refereeing anything can be tough, but the illusionist spells just open a whole new dimension of "I can try anything...."...

[Arduin]

I've always found several of the illusionist spells difficult to deal with, refereeing anything can be tough, but the illusionist spells just open a whole new dimension of "I can try anything...."...

Of course a Illusionist can try anything. A handy guideline is (from version to version) REALLY knowing the spell strength by level, for arcane spells in this case. And setting general rules. Like, Illusionist spells that aren't highly defined can't duplicate Wizard spells of the same level. But only lower and not as effective even then.

That kind of thing. Because as we know we can't anticipate every wacky thing a player may try.

[Snoring Rock]

From d20srd:

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

That does not bring all the damage and psyche and so forth.

[Arduin]

From d20srd:

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.

That does not bring all the damage and psyche and so forth.

This is the Phantasmal Force spell of 1st & 2nd edition, renamed. You might get a better insight by reading the original spell...

[Snoring Rock]

That is a 3rd level magic users spell. So at first level as an illusionist, it is quite powerful. The limit placed on endin when struck, makes sense.

[Arduin]

That is a 3rd level magic users spell. So at first level as an illusionist, it is quite powerful. The limit placed on endin when struck, makes sense.

It was 1st level illusionist spell. They are basically identical. Back then cross over spells were valued differently. 1st Ed printing had an error as to the level. It was corrected in 2nd Ed PHB.

[Snoring Rock]

It was 1st level illusionist spell but a 3rd level magic user. The point being that it was a big spread in level. Not sure about it being a mistake as much as a change in 2nd Ed. The way the spell is written in C&C only serves to cause headaches for CKs. It really needs to definitive. Not to the point you are back at 3e but clear enough it does not turn into players getting bent or ending in arguments in a game.

[Arduin]

It was 1st level illusionist spell but a 3rd level magic user. The point being that it was a big spread in level.

I have no idea what that has to do with comparing the 1st level illusionist (from 1st Ed.) spell to the C&C 1st level illusionist spell. My point being that is the spell it came from. And the level is still the same. So, a better understanding may come from reading the original rather the highly changed D20 version.

[Mark Hall]

Ok, now that I'm not at work, let's go into a bit more detail.

I view the Image line of spells (Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, etc.) as being Wish spells. Whatever the caster can envision, he can make happen... with limitations. Those limitations include the sensory limitations of the spell, the ability of the target to understand what's happening, the level of the spell, concentration of illusionist and the inherent fact that it's an illusion.

A 1st level Image spell can mimic any lower level spell that the illusionist can think of. However, the illusions don't create physical changes; Obscuring Mist? No problem. You create a silent volume of mist. Summon Monster? A little harder to do, since the monster you create will be silent and scentless. Magic Missile? Yeah, you can do that, but you can't guarantee that the target will connect "bolts of light fly from guy" to "I am supposed to take 1d4+1 points of damage for every one that hits me." EVERY illusion gets a saving throw, though it won't necessarily do you any good (an illusionary Obscuring Mist remains and obscures vision, but you know it's an illusion, for what good it does you; an illusionary dragon is still there, but you know it's not real and won't self-sabotage when trying to walk through it). Not being physical also means that they get a con or wisdom saving throw when they're convinced they're "dead". Lacking certain necessary senses (i.e. Orcs created that make no sound, a fireball that makes no heat) gives a bonus to save for every sense that's missing. Meanwhile, the illusionist is stationary or moving slowly, unable to cast anything else... though he can use some of his available AoE to create new effects (and many illusionists will create a "shield" that makes them look like the terrain).

Now, other illusion spells, I let illusionists refluff, though the stats remain the same. It doesn't make any sense that there's a giant dragon in the room? The illusionist can refluff it as an ogre or something else. Don't really LIKE dogs? Your illusionary hounds can be orcs or kobolds or landsquid, but they have no further effect than defined by the spell.

Illusionists are in some ways not as powerful as other casters... they cannot create the real effects that others take for granted. But a creative illusionist can distract well, and get some monsters confused or knocked down.

[Snoring Rock]

I follow you. My deal here is that a player has given some serious thought to the spell, and instead of using to hide objects,or make some think look different, they want to create floating weapons like spiritual weapon. The spell as written in 1e phantasmal force is very powerful for 1st level and does allow damge. The 3e version is just a visual thing.

The affects of illusions are done in the mind and therefore real damage may kill you. I would prefer to lose the illusionist. Because of the way the illusionist is presented in C&C the extra mental damage stuff was added to the spell description. The 3e spell is more like a 1st level spell to me.

[Snoring Rock]

This spell as written can be very powerful in the hands of the right player/illusionist. The D20 version is nerfed and is nothing more than a picture image. The C&C version and AD&D versions are below. I like that TLG took the 1e version over the 3e/D20.

C&C:
This spell creates a visual illusion of an object, creature or force, as visualized by the caster in a 40 foot cube, + 10 cubic feet per level. It cannot create sound, smell or tactile illusions. Creatures who view the illusion believe it, and can suffer damage from illusions. Hit point damage is suffered from damage to the mind/psyche. While concentrating, the caster can move the image within the range. The illusion disappears if an opponent makes the saving throw.

AD&D:
When this spell is cast, the magic-user creates a visual illusion which will affect all believing creatures which view the phantasmal force, even to the extent of suffering damage from phantasmal missiles or from falling into an illusory pit full of sharp spikes. Note the audial illusion is not a component of the spell. The illusion lasts until struck by an opponent – unless the spell caster causes the illusion to react appropriately - or until the magic-user ceases concentration upon the spell (due to desire, moving or successful attack which causes damage). Creatures which disbelieve the phantasmal force gain a saving throw versus the spell, and if they succeed, they see it for what it is and add +4 to associat3es saving throws if the knowledge can be communicated effectively. Creatures not observing the spell effect are immune until the view it. the spell can create the illusion of any object of creature, or force as long as it is within the boundaries of the spell’s area of effect. This area can move within the limits of the range.

[serleran]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

[Arduin]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

[serleran]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

Mine. Illusions that are not partially real have temporary damage effects (if used that way) equal to 100% - (spell level x 10) so that a spell of 9th level would be 10% temporary.

And it seems I made a mistake. The spell is 3rd level, not 1st.

So 70% temporary.

[Snoring Rock]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Are you saying damage from illusions are non-lethal or temporary damage? Would that be true for dark chaos or explosive runes? Those are illusionist spells as well.

I guess all damage is temporary since it can be healed. But seriously, all joking aside; where it this 90% temporary found?

[Snoring Rock]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

Mine. Illusions that are not partially real have temporary damage effects (if used that way) equal to 100% - (spell level x 10) so that a spell of 9th level would be 10% temporary.

Ok, your house rules...

I can dig it.

[Snoring Rock]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

Mine. Illusions that are not partially real have temporary damage effects (if used that way) equal to 100% - (spell level x 10) so that a spell of 9th level would be 10% temporary.

And it seems I made a mistake. The spell is 3rd level, not 1st.

So 70% temporary.

Silent image is a 1st level spell.

[Arduin]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

Mine.

It is best when answering a rule question to note if one is answering with a house rule rather than RAW. It avoids unnecessary posts and confusion. New players do lurk on these boards...

[Snoring Rock]

As much damage as the weapon deals. If there are no stats, as much as a comparable weapon. However, 90% would be temporary, so it better do a giant number to be an effective kill.

Where in the rules is the 90% figure from?

Mine.

It is best when answering a rule question to note if one is answering with a house rule rather than RAW. It avoids unnecessary posts and confusion. New players do lurk on these boards...

Yeah, we got all excited and confused..