There should be a C&C planar guide.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:27 am

Just say'n.

alcyone · Post by **alcyone** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:47 am

C&C isn't really a setting and doesn't have a cosmology or anything like that, except what might be implied by spells and magic items. Aihrde does, though. Some of that information is in the Winters Dark folio, but I imagine more detail is coming in the Codex or related products, or per-setting products.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:17 am

Aergraith wrote:C&C isn't really a setting and doesn't have a cosmology or anything like that, except what might be implied by spells and magic items. Aihrde does, though. Some of that information is in the Winters Dark folio, but I imagine more detail is coming in the Codex or related products, or per-setting products.

Yep. That info is left undefined on purpose in the core books. It really is CK territory.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:31 pm

I dunno. The Manual of the Planes was an awesome product, and I can't recall it being linked to any setting at all really.

I think C&C could definitely touch upon the cosmos -and the cool monster options alone would be worth the price o' admission pour moi.

Indeedy, after years on the Prime Material, I'm ready for some planar travel.

Mhmm.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:33 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:I dunno. The Manual of the Planes was an awesome product, and I can't recall it being linked to any setting at all really.

The standard D&D cosmology as found in the Manual of the Planes was the official cosmology used in the Planescape and Greyhawk campaign settings.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:42 pm

Yeah, it was default I'm sure, but didn't make reference to it, and stood as a stand alone product.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:49 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:Yeah, it was default I'm sure, but didn't make reference to it,

Yes, materials DID reference it for ALL players to learn. The cosmology was developed and published starting in '77 as part of Greyhawk. In '78 it was incorporated in the brand new AD&D game in the PHB.

I forget how much data I have stuffed into my head since I have played since the beginning of the hobby... I have to remember that some of y'all weren't even born yet or, were still small chillun.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:03 pm

Arduin wrote:
slimykuotoan wrote:Yeah, it was default I'm sure, but didn't make reference to it,
Yes, materials DID reference it for ALL players to learn. The cosmology was developed and published starting in '77 as part of Greyhawk.

Ah cool, I had no idea the Manual of the Planes was an official Greyhawk thing.

Anyhap, I want one fer C&C.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:53 pm

Aergraith wrote:C&C isn't really a setting and doesn't have a cosmology or anything like that, except what might be implied by spells and magic items. Aihrde does, though. Some of that information is in the Winters Dark folio, but I imagine more detail is coming in the Codex or related products, or per-setting products.

Yeah, I guess I'm looking for a Manual of the Planes for C&C, just as the original Manual of the Planes wasn't setting specific, but was made for AD&D, etc.

Although if the Trolls did one differently (setting specific), I'd be into that too.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:55 pm

Arduin wrote:
slimykuotoan wrote:The standard D&D cosmology as found in the Manual of the Planes was the official cosmology used in the Planescape and Greyhawk campaign settings.

Weird, I just looked through my Manual of the Planes and found no references to Greyhawk, rather just that the product was a resource for AD&D worlds.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:59 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:

Weird, I just looked through my Manual of the Planes and found no references to Greyhawk, rather just that the product was a resource for AD&D worlds.

That's because you weren't around for the early material published about that cosmology with Greyhawk material. It was put out in Mag form starting in '77.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:00 pm

Hmm, so other products have made references to it, but the product itself is stand alone.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:02 pm

That's toootally what I'd be interested in from the Trolls.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:13 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:Hmm, so other products have made references to it, but the product itself is stand alone.

The product itself it a creation from an actual setting. What you see IS the Greyhawk cosmology put into a book form with some added details.

I can't get any clearer than that without using pictures.

So, what the Trolls could do is republish the stuff in one book and call it a setting-less book and that would be the same thing.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Lol

I'm not sure you're completely understanding my point. I'm sure Greyhawk started developing some o' the beginnings of the Manual of the Planes, but the 'product itself' is not setting specific, no, but rather is intended as a blanket AD&D resource.

Similar to the Deities & Demigods, which was a non-setting specific resource for use with AD&D. There's no spell 'The Many Arms of Vishnu' listed in the AD&D Players Handbook, etc. It's a list of cosmologies presented for use in any game setting. Just as the Manual of the Planes was presented as a departure from the Prime Material Plane, whether that be Mystara, FR, or home brew.

And whether the Trolls ever do similar, or base it upon Aihrde, me wants it!

alcyone · Post by **alcyone** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:43 pm

I suppose if the focus were just on the planes that are relevant to the core setting (mentioned in spells or monster descriptions in the core) it would be worth breaking out so it's not repeated in other setting books. But the original Manual of the Planes had the Outer Planes which I'd just throw out if I were using another setting.

In the spells section these planes are mentioned:
Astral, Ethereal, Elemental
"plane of shadow"

And the more vague:
Outer Plane

Some monsters, e.g. Barghest, Bodak have a "home plane" or "native plane". Also mentioned are of course the material, "prime material", mortal, or plane of man, and the "nether planes". "Evil planes" and "infernal planes" are mentioned.

Shadow Mastiffs are from the "negative planes".

If you search "plane" in PHB or M&T it's clear that somehow, you will be interacting with another plane or a creature from another plane at some point in the game, and probably frequently. A guide to just the planes mentioned above and maybe a kit approach to the outer planes would be useful.

Yet, another book and now I have players saying "Actually, they can't be on the ethereal plane because we are in Hell and the ethereal only touches the material" or "The villain's blink spell can't work here!" and that sort of nonsense. So I'm not sure I want it; I can just make this stuff up. And I have the Manual of Planes already.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:51 pm

Aergraith wrote:In the spells section these planes are mentioned:
Astral, Ethereal, Elemental
"plane of shadow"

And the more vague:
Outer Plane

Some monsters, e.g. Barghest, Bodak have a "home plane" or "native plane". Also mentioned are of course the material, "prime material", mortal, or plane of man, and the "nether planes". "Evil planes" and "infernal planes" are mentioned.

Shadow Mastiffs are from the "negative planes".

If you search "plane" in PHB or M&T it's clear that somehow, you will be interacting with another plane or a creature from another plane at some point in the game, and probably frequently. A guide to just the planes mentioned above and maybe a kit approach to the outer planes would be useful.

Yeah, I'd totally be into having a lot of the above fleshed out. Nasty 'n fun filled places (un)lucky travellers may find themselves, especially at higher levels! And the monster section would be killer.

A trip to the infernal planes is definitely in order for one o' my campaigns methinks.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:44 pm

I would love to see some extraplanar content for C&C. Thanks to the original MotP, I associate planar adventures with that old school feel.

slimykuotoan wrote:I dunno. The Manual of the Planes was an awesome product, and I can't recall it being linked to any setting at all really.

Kayolan · Post by **Kayolan** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:00 pm

Edit: just answered my own question.

Kayolan · Post by **Kayolan** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:53 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:Lol

I'm not sure you're completely understanding my point. I'm sure Greyhawk started developing some o' the beginnings of the Manual of the Planes, but the 'product itself' is not setting specific, no, but rather is intended as a blanket AD&D resource.

Jeff Grubb wrote it as a universal supplement, not campaign specific, but he drew on what was already there, which is what Gary created while running his GH campaign. It made its way into the AD&D rules via the PHB, and it went from there.

He also mentioned Ed Greenwood as a source, namely his articles in Dragon #75, #76, and #91 regarding the Nine Hells.

Quoting from The Dragon #8 (July, 1977) article Planes - The Concepts of Spatial, Temporal and Physical Relationships in D&D by Gary Gygax (bolded text by me):

"As of this writing I foresee a number of important things arising
from the adoption of this system. First, it will cause a careful rethinking
of much of the justification for the happenings in the majority of
D&D campaigns. Second, it will vastly expand the potential of all campaigns
which adopt the system — although it will mean tremendous additional
work for these DMs. Different planes will certainly have different
laws and different inhabitants (although some of these beings
will be familiar). Whole worlds are awaiting creation, complete invention,
that is. Magical/technological/whatever items need be devised.
And ways to move to these planes must be provided for discovery by
players. Third, and worst from this writer’s point of view, it will mean
that I must revise the whole of D&D to conform to this new notion. Under
the circumstances, I think it best to do nothing more than offer the
idea for your careful consideration and thorough experimentation.
This writer has used only parts of the system in a limited fashion. It
should be tried and tested before adoption."

Dead Horse · Post by **Dead Horse** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:14 pm

Its out of print but the fantasy worlds book, Cosmos Builder by the Trolls is very similar to the old Manual of the Planes. Also it was setting neutral/D20.
http://www.amazon.com/Gygaxs-Cosmos-Bui ... 1931275386 link to Amazon listings of the book.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:07 pm

Dead Horse wrote:Its out of print but the fantasy worlds book, Cosmos Builder by the Trolls is very similar to the old Manual of the Planes. Also it was setting neutral/D20.
http://www.amazon.com/Gygaxs-Cosmos-Bui ... 1931275386 link to Amazon listings of the book.

I have his World Builder. I wonder why this isn't being made anymore?

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:10 pm

I've long wanted a book for the Planes.

It would be easy to do one generic and tie it into Aihrde actually. Already built into the cosmology of the world are things like Hell/Aufstrag and the Abyss/Wretched Planes. The elemental plans are there in the Maelstrom. Faerie in the Seven Rivers. The Net of Ea-Raena in the Ethereal and so on.

I am on the doorstep of finishing the Codex of Aihrde...(see post here)...

Steve

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:30 pm

Troll Lord wrote:I've long wanted a book for the Planes.

It would be easy to do one generic and tie it into Aihrde actually. Already built into the cosmology of the world are things like Hell/Aufstrag and the Abyss/Wretched Planes. The elemental plans are there in the Maelstrom. Faerie in the Seven Rivers. The Net of Ea-Raena in the Ethereal and so on...

!!!

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:46 am

Arduin, if you're asking why the Cosmos Builder and/or World Builder aren't being produced anymore...it's pretty much the same reason as why Castle Zagyg is no longer with us (as far as I recall). If you know that story, I won't rehash it here. I seem to vaguely recall that the Trolls were possibly (before Gary passed away) going to release C&C-statted versions of the Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds books. Sadly, it never happened.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:52 am

tylermo wrote:Arduin, if you're asking why the Cosmos Builder and/or World Builder aren't being produced anymore..

Because I was wondering. Why else would I ask?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:17 pm

A book on the planes would be a fun project as there are no limits.

Troll Lord Games

There should be a C&C planar guide.

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