Spell Casting Times

[Kayolan]

According to the PHB (page 53), "Most spells take one round to cast. A spell that takes one round (CT 1) to cast comes into effect during the caster’s initiative turn for that round."

So if the spell take one round to cast, should it not go into effect after one round has passed and not on the same round you begin the spell? Or does it go off at the very end of the round or the beginning of the next round?

I bring this up because it seems that in C&C, casters can cast spells spontaneously, with little chance of ever being disrupted. There is this from the PHB (page 53): "Most Castle Keepers make you announce at the beginning of the round whether you are going to cast a spell. If so, and you roll a low initiative roll, then you have a chance of being struck before the spell goes off."

This would seem to imply that it takes less than a round to cast a spell, or am I missing something here.

[Aramis]

Beware bookkeeping.

Why bog down smooth simple C&C with tracking spell casting starts, spell effect begins, weapon speed factors, varied casting times etc. (I realise you are not suggesting all of these)

Easy peasy lemon squeezy- casting begins at round start, goes off on your turn in the round, if it lasts multiple rounds it ends at the termination of your turn that round etc.

It may not conform to the BtB rules but it conforms to the spirit of simplicity, and it's a fair rule because it applies equally to both sides (monsters and PCs)

[Kayolan]

I'm not trying to complicate it, just trying to figure out how it's supposed to work btb. A round of casting time would seem to indicate that it would go off on the next round. I just think it's a little much to say "poof" your spell works immediately, when in fact the rules say it takes a round to cast it. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like spell casters have an easy time of it, when it comes to getting off their spells before anyone can try to stop them.

[Kayolan]

Here is a list of all the spells in the PHB that take more than CT 1. As you can see, most of these spells would not be cast during a combat situation, the bulk of the spells in C&C require CT 1.

Astral Projection CT 9
Antipathy* CT 1 hr.
Atonement CT 1 hr. +1 1 hr./lvl. of recip.
Awe CT 2
Bind Elemental CT 10 min.
Binding CT 1 tn.
Bless Water CT 1 tn.
Call Lightning CT 10 min. plus 1 rd. per bolt
Cloak of Dark Chaos CT 5
Clone CT 1 hour
Commune CT 10 min.
Commune with Nature CT 10 min.
Consecrate CT 3
Contact Other Plane CT 10 min.
Control Weather CT 10 min.
Create Food and Water CT 10 min.
Create Greater Undead CT 1 hour
Create Undead CT 1 hour
Discern Location CT 10 min.
Divination CT 10 min.
Doubled Treasure CT 2
Dragon Mount CT 2
Earthquake CT 10 min.
Faithful Hound CT 2 rd.
Find the Path CT 3
Fire Trap CT 10 min.
Gate CT 2
Glyph of Warding CT 10 min.
Greater Restoration CT 1 hour
Greater Scrying CT 1 tn.
Guards and Wards CT 30 min.
Hallow CT one day
Hallucinatory Terrain CT 10 min.
Humanoid Finding CT 3
Indentify CT 10 min.
Idol of Faith CT 2
Illusionary Lions CT 2
Illusionary Wolves CT 2
Illusionary Script CT 1 min.
Illusory Wall CT 1 tn.
Instant Summons CT 1 tn.
Iron Wood CT 10 min. +1 min./lb.
Legend Lore CT see text
Lesser Restoration CT 10 min.
Major Creation CT 10 min.
Major Dark Chaos CT 3
Minor Creation CT 1 tn.
Mirage Arcana CT 5 min.
Mnemonic Enhancer CT 10 min.
Move Earth CT see text
Nightmare CT 10 min.
Permanency CT 2 + spell made permanent
Plant Growth CT 3
Raise Dead CT 1 tn.
Regenerate CT 3
Reincarnate CT 10 min.
Restoration CT 1 hour
Resurrection CT 1 hour
Screen CT 10 min.
Scrying CT 10 min.
Secret Chest CT 1 hr.
Secret Passage CT 10 min.
Secure Shelter CT 10 min.
Sending CT 10 min.
Sequester CT 3
Simulacrum CT 12 hrs.
Snare CT 3
Speak with Dead CT 10 min.
Stone Tell CT 10 min.
Storm of Vengeance CT 2
Summon Elemental CT 10 min.
Summon Elemental Swarm CT 10 min.
Summon Familiar CT 1 day
Summon Planar Ally CT 1 tn.
Symbol CT 10 min.
True Resurrection CT 3 hrs.
Vision CT 1 tn.
Ward's Extended Invisibility CT 4
Ward's Illusionary Portal CT 2

[DMSamuel]

My reasoning is this... as soon as the round starts, the magic user is starting to cast the spell - waving his hands, sprinkling and/or waving about the material components, and intoning the correct vocal components to cast the spell. All of that takes place during the time that occurred before the magic user's place in initiative so that by the time his turn comes up, he can say the last of the intonations and the spell is released.

I agree that if a spell takes a round to cast, it should only activate on the round after the magic user started to cast it - so a spell cast on round 1 would become active on the magic user's turn in round 2, since it took a full round to actual perform the casting. In fact, I ran the game that way for several months and I have to say, to be honest it was a pain to track. I had a large group of players and it just became too much of a hassle for me at the table, so I stopped doing it that way and just started ruling that a spell which takes one round to cast takes effect on the magic user's initiative place in the round they cast it in, rather than a round later. You wouldn't think that it would be such a big deal to track, but it was in that group and doing it this way made the game a lot smoother.

When my 2e game switches over to C&C (scheduled for Feb) then I will probably rule that it takes a whole round to finish the casting - this group will take that a lot easier than my last C&C group.

[Arduin]

Why bog down smooth simple C&C with tracking spell casting starts, spell effect begins,

I don't. I do it even simpler than that. There is ONE combat round. Every spell with a casting time of ONE Combat round goes off at the end of the Combat round. I don't complicate combat by giving every caster their own time stop effect to cast spells. MUCH simpler to simply have spell casting take the ONE Combat round as per spell descriptions.

Any caster that is casting a spell that takes damage BEFORE the end of the ONE Combat round, loses the spell they were casting.

[Arduin]

I'm not trying to complicate it, just trying to figure out how it's supposed to work btb. A round of casting time would seem to indicate that it would go off on the next round. I just think it's a little much to say "poof" your spell works immediately, when in fact the rules say it takes a round to cast it. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like spell casters have an easy time of it, when it comes to getting off their spells before anyone can try to stop them.

It is supposed to be a "full round action". Going off at the END of a round. If you use init rule then it is basically can be instantaneous casting. Which would make it insane that a caster could not then move after the instant spell casting.

[Go0gleplex]

I've always had people declare their intended actions prior to rolling initiative. Spells begin casting on the caster's initiative and go off at the end that round (for CT 1). Though like Arduin, if they are hit before it goes off after they've began casting the spell is lost.

[alcyone]

If you look at the below, you can see that a spell that takes one round to cast doesn't really take a round. It either takes from the declaration phase to the spell-caster's initiative, or happens entirely on the caster's initiative.

When a spell takes more than 1 round, it goes off on the caster's initiative in the final round (irrespective of what his initiative was in the round he started casting.)

3.5e had "full round actions" that were distinct from "standard actions". Most spells in 3.5e are "standard actions" and happen right away on someone's turn. C&C just has a CT for spells which is neither of those. The RAW possibilities are:

6th Print PHB p73 "CASTING SPELLS":
A character who wishes to cast a spell announces his intention
to the Castle Keeper during the character’s initiative turn.
A character must make all pertinent decisions about a spell
(range, target, area, effect, etc.) when the character begins
casting, unless the spell specifies otherwise. The character must
make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where
the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The
Castle Keeper applies whatever results a spell entails using the
spell’s description.

Conflicts With:

6th Printing PHB p74: "CASTING TIME":

Most spells take one round to cast. A spell that takes one round (CT 1)
to cast comes into effect during the caster’s initiative turn for that round.

Unless..
(same section)
...Most Castle Keepers make you announce at the beginning
of the round whether you are going to cast a spell.

But if not...
For those Castle Keepers who
do not require announcement, some disallow any spell in the
same round in which you were hit before your initiative turn. (Which presumably also happens in the declaration case.)

[Kayolan]

So if the CK is not requiring a declaration at the initiative roll and the spell goes into effect on their initiative number, the only way a spell can be disrupted by a PC/NPC is when they hold their action and then act when the spell caster begins casting.

[Arduin]

So if the CK is not requiring a declaration at the initiative roll and the spell goes into effect on their initiative number, the only way a spell can be disrupted by a PC/NPC is when they hold their action and then act when the spell caster begins casting.

Right. BUT, since a CT 1 is a FULL round action, to NOT declare means that they can't cast. Logically anyway. But, making people declare before the round has been recommended SOP since '77 at least.

[alcyone]

Right. BUT, since a CT 1 is a FULL round action, to NOT declare means that they can't cast.

Not seeing where you are getting the "FULL round action" except "Most spells take one round to cast." But that gets defined by the later text into something that takes somewhat less than a round.

[Arduin]

Not seeing where you are getting the "FULL round action" except "Most spells take one round to cast."

You don't understand that an action that would take full round is like a spell that takes a full round to cast????? Really?

[alcyone]

Not seeing where you are getting the "FULL round action" except "Most spells take one round to cast."

You don't understand that an action that would take full round is like a spell that takes a full round to cast????? Really?

No, I don't find the text "full round" anywhere in the rules. Anyway, I agree with you Kayolan, and it seems the rules do also, that a CT 1 spell will take less than a round under most circumstances.

I can see one source of confusion, which has been touched upon before; everything in the round does happen more or less at once and doesn't really take 1 second for each initiative count in perfect duration and order.

I won't requote the rules again, but there isn't anywhere that it says the spell goes off at the bottom of the round that I can see.

There is this case:

DECLARATION: I cast a CT 1 spell
Roll Initiative: 5
Start casting immediately
10
9
8
7
6
5 My spell goes off
4 (If I am hit on rounds 4-1, I do not lose the spell by anything suggested in the rules)
3
2
1

Here, my spell took 1/2 round to cast.

And there is this case:
No declaration
I roll a 5 initiative
10
9
7
6
5 I cast my spell and it goes off. Notionally I may or may not have started at the top of the round, implied by the suggestion that if I got hit before my initiative count, I might lose the spell.
4 (If I am hit on rounds 4-1, I do not lose the spell by anything suggested in the rules)
3
2
1

Spell took 1/2 round to cast.

Now, if CT>1 things happen more predictably, now each round is more or less a "full round". More or less, because initiative is rolled each round, so it's only in exact rounds of 10 1 second segments if the spellcaster rolls the same initiative in the start and end rounds of the spell.

[serleran]

I use 10 second combat rounds.

Spellcasting must be declared prior to rolling initiative. When you cast a spell, you roll 2d10, one for your initiative and one for the spell. If you get hit before your count, the spell is disrupted.

[Captain_K]

We could have this same argument for how long does it take to swing a war mattock vs a dagger vs shoot a bow... each has different speeds in real life. But CnC combat is everyone's everything all happens in one 'combat round' which is more or less 10 sec long... but I bet we all play, "If I beat you in initiative and kill you you don't get to strike at me cause you're dead." So I think if most folks play the combat round that way the spells should be similar... the guy with the sword is "obviously" going to keep swinging it and if not he really should declare BEFORE the dice roll, I'm doing something different... but really if the guy is swinging away and takes massive damage from the monster and says, "Screw this, I'm almost dead on my turn I do a defensive retreat.." I think the rules even allow for obvious "changes in pre- initiative" plans if you have not attacked yet to do certain combat actions.. so what's good for the sword should be good for the spell.

[alcyone]

I think the rules even allow for obvious "changes in pre- initiative" plans if you have not attacked yet to do certain combat actions.. so what's good for the sword should be good for the spell.

The reason this is an issue is because, especially at low levels, an NPC spellcaster should be interruptible. A PC too, but considering that a low level spell caster can TPK a party with Sleep, some way to allow for interruption and counterspelling is a good idea.

[Traveller]

AD&D had casting times in segments, rounds, and turns, depending on the spell. Yet I don't recall there being any mention of spell disruption in the Player's Handbook - something which I should check. C&C is no different, and any rules for spell disruption are up to the individual CK, simply because different people are going to rule differently on the matter. For example, my own house rules specifically require a caster to stand in place and concentrate throughout the round, with the spell itself going off at the end of the round. If they stop concentrating, the spell is lost. If struck in combat at any point during the round, the spell is lost.

Several CKs in the past have noted it to be a very brutal setup, and I deliberately set it up that way with the only real out being a clumsy wizard - a weakness in using Dex-based individual Initiative. But while I'm "hardcore" when it comes to spell disruption, not everyone is. Thus it's up to the individual CKs to make a ruling, even something as simple as "roll a Constitution check to see if your spell is disrupted by the fighter that tried to take your face off."

[alcyone]

AD&D had casting times in segments, rounds, and turns, depending on the spell. Yet I don't recall there being any mention of spell disruption in the Player's Handbook - something which I should check.

I agree that C&C doesn't need any more rules on this.

The AD&D rules are on page 65 of the DMG under Spell Casting in Melee, and p. 104 of the PHB under Spell Combat.

[Arduin]

AD&D had casting times in segments, rounds, and turns, depending on the spell. Yet I don't recall there being any mention of spell disruption in the Player's Handbook

DMG pg. 71 Example of combat played out simultaneously (instead of in series with every PC having their own combat round while everyone else is frozen in time)...

It's the major example EGG gave on how to run combat in the DMG