Go0gleplex wrote:Outdoors we had things like entangle and stone to mud...and could let loose with the heavy artillery stuff without worrying about blow back unless we were in a town....though a couple times we didn't care and took out the town also since the populace was fully corrupted.
I've never been able to go full on evil GM mode. Have a bad enough rep as a killer GM as it is and none of my players have ever been able to handle it.
All it takes is two things: 1) Have enough egos at the table to decide a wee bit of correction is needed and 2) Close reading of how things are supposed to work as far as monsters and spells go. Take Demons and Devils; they are able to bring in allies fairly easily, some of those allies can bring in others. An encounter with a single Vrock can go south real quick if played by the book.
Lord Skystorm
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
A close read of the 1e MM has some demons that look deceptively weak. When you read closely you find that they are far from it. Take the Lemure for example; A 3 HD monster with a converted AC of 13. Easy stuff right? Well when you see that they regen 1hp per round, can only be killed by Holy Water, Holy Swords and similar items and are encountered in a range of 5d6 creatures you find that they are not a weak monster.
How many low-level parties are going to have 10+ vials of Holy Water on them? Or how many are equipped to handle creatures that can regen? However, by stats alone the Lemure is a low-level monster.
What I am trying to illustrate is a problem I have seen all CKs have (even myself) in not paying attention to how monsters are supposed to run in a basic encounter. Take goblins again, for a standard encounter of 2-12 when 10+ are encountered one will be a 1st level fighter. Thus as raid on a camp with 10 or more goblins is going to have a tougher goblin around. Also adding in that goblins have an average intelligence sways the encounter a bit more as they would have knowledge of standard tactics.
The point I am trying to make is that many encounters are ran missing key points in making the encounter work like it is supposed to. Goblins, if ran correctly, should not be easy for low or even high level parties as the game adjusts for the scale of levels and party strength. As far as demons go, I have never seen them ran correctly. They usually get nerfed and a 8HD demon becomes easy for a 4th level party. This is why I used the example of some demons as 'weak' due to misconceptions about their true strength.
Lord Skystorm
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Julian Grimm wrote:
The point I am trying to make is that many encounters are ran missing key points in making the encounter work like it is supposed to. Goblins, if ran correctly, should not be easy for low or even high level parties as the game adjusts for the scale of levels and party strength. As far as demons go, I have never seen them ran correctly. They usually get nerfed and a 8HD demon becomes easy for a 4th level party. This is why I used the example of some demons as 'weak' due to misconceptions about their true strength.
Yep. I screwed up on this a lot when I was starting out as a DM. I came to think of this phenomenon, in my own mind, as running monsters One dimensionally.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
Julian Grimm wrote:
The point I am trying to make is that many encounters are ran missing key points in making the encounter work like it is supposed to. Goblins, if ran correctly, should not be easy for low or even high level parties as the game adjusts for the scale of levels and party strength. As far as demons go, I have never seen them ran correctly. They usually get nerfed and a 8HD demon becomes easy for a 4th level party. This is why I used the example of some demons as 'weak' due to misconceptions about their true strength.
Yep. I screwed up on this a lot when I was starting out as a DM. I came to think of this phenomenon, in my own mind, as running monsters One dimensionally.
It seems that I am still learning to run encounters better. This thread alone has had me looking closer at how M&T has monsters listed and using those stats as a baseline for running the game. By doing this those monsters of the goblin spectrum (Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear) are going to be ran differently than orcs and orcs will be ran differently than kobolds. I am going to really be trying not to cookie cutter them anymore and make them their own unique creatures.
Lord Skystorm
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Julian Grimm wrote:
The point I am trying to make is that many encounters are ran missing key points in making the encounter work like it is supposed to. Goblins, if ran correctly, should not be easy for low or even high level parties as the game adjusts for the scale of levels and party strength. As far as demons go, I have never seen them ran correctly. They usually get nerfed and a 8HD demon becomes easy for a 4th level party. This is why I used the example of some demons as 'weak' due to misconceptions about their true strength.
Yep. I screwed up on this a lot when I was starting out as a DM. I came to think of this phenomenon, in my own mind, as running monsters One dimensionally.
It seems that I am still learning to run encounters better. This thread alone has had me looking closer at how M&T has monsters listed and using those stats as a baseline for running the game. By doing this those monsters of the goblin spectrum (Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear) are going to be ran differently than orcs and orcs will be ran differently than kobolds. I am going to really be trying not to cookie cutter them anymore and make them their own unique creatures.
My friend and I did a little drill to hone our DMing skills way back when. We BOTH took different monsters (Orcs vs. Goblins and what not) and ran little combats each other. 10-20 monsters to a side. That REALLY helped me focus on playing them as a unit.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
Adjusting the weapons and armor load out works too. Give them things like plate mail and two handed axes and you have harder to hit enemies and higher damage all around. Let them also have a few healing potions and things like flaming oil and you have another deadly mix.
Lord Skystorm
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Just to clarify, I was looking for ways to make low level humanoids challenging for a group with average level of 15+.
Treat it like a super heroes game. Seriously. With that level, and those kind of powers, I find thinking of them as being like super heroes helps me out a lot. When you get down to it, that is precisely what they are, just a fantasy version of Dr. Strange, Iron Man, etc...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Well, sadly today I saw a reason to argue against making low intelligence monsters tooooo clever.
A bone head ran from the back woods hick renta-cop that spends all his time writing speeding tickets down on the highway. His tire blew out on the hill above my mom's house, and he jumped out and ran into the woods heading down to my moms. The cops (the local renta cop and a town cop, not a sherif) arrived, walked down to my mom's house, told her to stay in the house. When she told them she saw him run in the woods, and that they should look in her old chicken coup or my old pig barn, and to pay attention around my dad's old wood/metal shop. They himmed and hawed, kicked the dirt around a bit, and made excuses to not look for him.
She called me (I was already loaded to go squirrel & rabbit hunting) and I headed over. I got there as they finished loading his car on a wrecker and they smiled at me as they drove off. It took me less then 15 min to find his trail, and track him to where he sat and smoked a cigarette (throwing down his butt). I had mom call them and they told me they didn't think it was worth coming back out for “no way to tell where he went” … I called my moms neighbor (they are friend with me from church, all of them are masters of various martial arts, and all of them – even the mom & daughter – hunt) because he headed across the woods to their land. Their oldest son, back form college, picked up the trail in less than 30 minutes. Then followed the trail out to the road. A call to the sheriff (not the rental cop) got them looking and they found the guy 20 min later walking down the back road.
So, with that as an example, we may not want to make the low level low intelligence monsters toooo clever. They for the most part could/should be more like the renta-cop and the townie cop. Too inept and to lazy to be really effective.
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Lurker wrote:
So, with that as an example, we may not want to make the low level low intelligence monsters toooo clever. They for the most part could/should be more like the renta-cop and the townie cop. Too inept and to lazy to be really effective.
You're neglecting Darwin. In our modern society these types don't get weeded out before adulthood.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
Arduin, I thought the break worked only after a prime hand/blade trap or lock then a swing through the stationary blade.. as you can tell, I'm not sword man.. but the things are in so many cultures I assume they had to work for someone to keep making them... were they really that sucky? back then if it didn't work I assume the folks using them didn't live long to make more or spread the idea.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger
seems a mixed bag if you believe wiki bits.. good enough for me for a fantasy game and I want a highly skilled pair of fighters trained to "one two" their opponents and disarm and destroy their weapons... if good old steel and muscle don't work, plenty of magic could be focused to help too.. again not something a CK should do all the time, but once in a while it adds for fun.. we just had the main fighter "double fumble".. fumbled the blade, resulted in hitting a rock and the blade fumbled its save and shattered... a specialized fighter with long sword was forced to borrow a club as not one PC had a second weapon.. a great party learning moment about a simple boy scout mantra "always be prepared".. I'm going to have to snap a few bow strings next....
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
Captain_K wrote:Arduin, I thought the break worked only after a prime hand/blade trap or lock then a swing through the stationary blade.. as you can tell, I'm not sword man.. but the things are in so many cultures I assume they had to work for someone to keep making them... were they really that sucky?
Yes, they very VERY dangerous to use. Even highly skilled martial artists using sai's got killed most of the time fighting skilled, sword wielding opponents. They were something you used as a last resort against someone with a sword. A last ditch back up. No sane person went LOOKING to get in a fight using those items against a skilled and armed swordsman. In some cultures those weapons were invented because it was illegal fr lower classes to carry swords so it was better than no protection against a sword swinger. Historically look at what happened on the battlefield...
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
Lurker wrote:
So, with that as an example, we may not want to make the low level low intelligence monsters toooo clever. They for the most part could/should be more like the renta-cop and the townie cop. Too inept and to lazy to be really effective.
You're neglecting Darwin. In our modern society these types don't get weeded out before adulthood.
Rgr that !
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Lurker wrote:
So, with that as an example, we may not want to make the low level low intelligence monsters toooo clever. They for the most part could/should be more like the renta-cop and the townie cop. Too inept and to lazy to be really effective.
You're neglecting Darwin. In our modern society these types don't get weeded out before adulthood.
Rgr that !
Yup, natural selection needs to come back.
Lord Skystorm
Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS
Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!
AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06
Lurker wrote:
So, with that as an example, we may not want to make the low level low intelligence monsters toooo clever. They for the most part could/should be more like the renta-cop and the townie cop. Too inept and to lazy to be really effective.
You're neglecting Darwin. In our modern society these types don't get weeded out before adulthood.
Rgr that !
Yup, natural selection needs to come back.
Lawn Darts for all!!!
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
Every try to cross the woods and never touch the ground, we called it tree swinging, small sapling swung back and forth until you could grab a branch in the next small sapling over.. its amazing none of us died from that stupid summer!
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
Captain_K wrote:Every try to cross the woods and never touch the ground, we called it tree swinging, small sapling swung back and forth until you could grab a branch in the next small sapling over.. its amazing none of us died from that stupid summer!
Rgr that been there. And a major 'oh cr@p' moment when you hear the limb crack and pop. That and swinging on wild grape vines have given me more than a few scars! A good not though, I know I'm not allergic to poison ivy. The vine pulled loos from the tree mid swing and I landed (hard) in a over 50' patch of poison ivy. bursed and scratched from head to toe, but not breaking out.
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Lurker wrote:
Rgr that, and growing up out in the sticks like I did there was also tree climbing (and where there is climbing there is falling) and bb gun fights.
Oh yes. We also had CO2 powered pellet guns we fought with. Put on a pair of motorcycle goggles and go to town. Hurt like hell.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill
