Sharp Senses (again ... )

[kreider204]

In earlier printings (I'm looking at the 4th), the Illusionist's Sharp Senses ability listed Wisdom as the associated attribute. I recall a few conversations about this; IIRC, at least a couple of folks were claiming that this was not an erratum, and that the Trolls' intent was that the Illusionist had to make a successful Wisdom check in order then to get the relevant bonus on his save vs. illusion. However, I notice that in the 6th printing, Wisdom is no longer listed. Does that mean the Trolls came to their senses, or is this absence an oversight (i.e., a new erratum ... )?

If the former, then should other similar entries be corrected in future printings? I'm thinking the relevant resistances for the dwarf, elf, and half-elf.

Thanks.

[Treebore]

It is just a straight up bonus to save versus illusions, so pretty sure its not an errata issue. So anytime an Illusionist is making a save versus a spell on their spell list, they get to add the bonus, regardless of which attribute the spell save describes.

[kreider204]

Groovy. Then I'm thinking there's no need to list an attribute next to those racial bonuses either, since they aren't SIEGE checks either.

[Treebore]

Groovy. Then I'm thinking there's no need to list an attribute next to those racial bonuses either, since they aren't SIEGE checks either.

Racial bonus? Or are you meaning the class bonus?

[kreider204]

As per my OP: dwarves, elves, and half-elves have various resistances which provide saving throw bonuses. Some list an attribute, in the format normally associated with a class ability. That looks like errata, just as the earlier printing "Sharp Senses (Wisdom)" appears to have been an erratum, since they likewise are straight bonuses, not SIEGE checks.

[Arduin]

In earlier printings (I'm looking at the 4th), the Illusionist's Sharp Senses ability listed Wisdom as the associated attribute. I recall a few conversations about this; IIRC, at least a couple of folks were claiming that this was not an erratum, and that the Trolls' intent was that the Illusionist had to make a successful Wisdom check in order then to get the relevant bonus on his save vs. illusion. However, I notice that in the 6th printing, Wisdom is no longer listed. Does that mean the Trolls came to their senses, or is this absence an oversight (i.e., a new erratum ... )?

It is as it is intended in 6th printing for Illusionists. Straight bonus vs. Illusions.

[kreider204]

Groovy. So, extrapolating from that, can I deduce that the dwarf's "resistant to poison" and the elf and half-elf's "spell resistance" racial abilities are also straight bonuses, and not SIEGE checks? And therefore do not need to specify "constitution" and "wisdom' (respectively)?

[Arduin]

Groovy. So, extrapolating from that, can I deduce that the dwarf's "resistant to poison" and the elf and half-elf's "spell resistance" racial abilities are also straight bonuses, and not SIEGE checks? And therefore do not need to specify "constitution" and "wisdom' (respectively)?

ALL saving throws in C&C are by definition, SIEGE checks. Dwarves add a +3 to saves vs. ALL spells (and spell like effects). They add 3 to their SIEGE Check. Elves add 10 vs. Sleep type spells on their SIEGE check.

Example: A dwarf gets blasted by a fireball. He makes his SIEGE check (saving throw) vs. Dex I believe. He adds 3 to whatever he rolls as it is a spell.

[kreider204]

Right, but the relevant bonus is applied directly to the relevant save / SIEGE check - it doesn't require an additional SIEGE check on top of that, correct?

[Arduin]

Right, but the relevant bonus is applied directly to the relevant save / SIEGE check - it doesn't require an additional SIEGE check on top of that, correct?

It's a bonus to the SIEGE check die roll. Just like an attribute bonus.

[Snoring Rock]

Groovy. So, extrapolating from that, can I deduce that the dwarf's "resistant to poison" and the elf and half-elf's "spell resistance" racial abilities are also straight bonuses, and not SIEGE checks? And therefore do not need to specify "constitution" and "wisdom' (respectively)?

ALL saving throws in C&C are by definition, SIEGE checks. Dwarves add a +3 to saves vs. ALL spells (and spell like effects). They add 3 to their SIEGE Check. Elves add 10 vs. Sleep type spells on their SIEGE check.

Example: A dwarf gets blasted by a fireball. He makes his SIEGE check (saving throw) vs. Dex I believe. He adds 3 to whatever he rolls as it is a spell.

True. There are careless payers that just add it to Int. save vs. magic. But that is wrong. it applies to ALL saves vs. magic.

[kreider204]

I’m not making myself clear. Let me try again.

A couple of printings back, there were some questions and discussions about the Illusionist’s “Sharp Senses” ability. In earlier printings, it was listed as “Sharp Senses (Wisdom).” Some of us asked what the “Wisdom” part was doing there. Normally, a class ability does not list an attribute unless it requires a SIEGE check to activate. Sharp senses, however, seemed simply to be a straight up bonus to saving throws. Thus, listing “Wisdom” seemed irrelevant or redundant. However, when this was pointed out, some people argued that, indeed the Trolls intended that the Illusionist make a Wisdom SIEGE check to see whether or not he could then add the Sharp Senses bonus to the following Intelligence saving throw to disbelief the illusion. See these threads:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12194 Look at Serleran’s post in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11445 Serleran’s post again.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1697 Serleran’s and Peter’s posts.

In the 6th printing, the reference to Wisdom in the Illusionist’s Sharp Senses ability was removed, thus clearing up this confusion, it seems, and belying the interpretation that the Illusionist had to make a Wisdom check before making his Intelligence save.

Now, with that in mind, I am asking the parallel question about some racial abilities. The dwarf, elf, and half-elf all have certain resistances. Some list an attribute in parentheses, some do not.

MY QUESTION: Why do some racial bonuses list an attribute and some do not? Is that simply inconsistent formatting? Or is there some functional difference, in the way that people were arguing for the Illusionist’s Sharp Senses ability? For the purposes of tidying up future printings, is there something about that racial abilities that should be corrected, either removing the attribute in those that list them or including the attribute in those that do not, to make the formatting consistent, OR are ALL those racial bonuses exactly and perfectly correct as is in the current printing, because there is some functional difference in the way they work?

Thanks.

[Arduin]

However, when this was pointed out, some people argued that, indeed the Trolls intended that the Illusionist make a Wisdom SIEGE check to see whether or not he could then add the Sharp Senses bonus to the following Intelligence saving throw to disbelief the illusion.

Those people were wrong.

MY QUESTION: Why do some racial bonuses list an attribute and some do not?

Be specific. Which ones list an attribute that you have a question about. The dwarf & elf bonuses we have talked about do NOT list one.

[kreider204]

As they appear on the relevant pages.

Dwarf:
- RESISTANT TO ARCANE MAGIC
- RESISTANT TO FEAR
- RESISTANT TO POISONS (CONSTITUTION)

Elf:
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)

Gnome:
- ENHANCED HEARING

Half-Elf:
- EMPATHY
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)
- ENHANCED SENSES

Halfling:
- FEARLESS
- RESISTANT

Half-Orc:
- RESISTANT TO DISEASE

All of these provide bonuses to SIEGE checks. A few list an attribute in parentheses; most do not. Is there a mechanical reason for this, or is it simply inconsistent formatting?

[Arduin]

- RESISTANT TO POISONS (CONSTITUTION)

Poisons are always saved vs. using Con.

Elf:
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)

You are incorrect here. In 6th printing there is no mention of Wisdom in the Sleep resistance paragraph.

All of these provide bonuses to SIEGE checks. A few list an attribute in parentheses; most do not. Is there a mechanical reason for this, or is it simply inconsistent formatting?

Looks like mechanics.

[kreider204]

I appreciate your trying to help, but you're still not understanding my question. I'll just wait until someone else comes along. Thanks anyway.

[Omote]

As they appear on the relevant pages.

Dwarf:
- RESISTANT TO ARCANE MAGIC
- RESISTANT TO FEAR
- RESISTANT TO POISONS (CONSTITUTION)

Elf:
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)

Gnome:
- ENHANCED HEARING

Half-Elf:
- EMPATHY
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)
- ENHANCED SENSES

Halfling:
- FEARLESS
- RESISTANT

Half-Orc:
- RESISTANT TO DISEASE

All of these provide bonuses to SIEGE checks. A few list an attribute in parentheses; most do not. Is there a mechanical reason for this, or is it simply inconsistent formatting?

Kreider, you are correct. The Wisdom tag should be removed from Elf Spell Resistance, and Half-Elf Spell Resistance.

~O

[Arduin]

Kreider, you are correct. The Wisdom tag should be removed from Elf Spell Resistance, and Half-Elf Spell Resistance.

~O

It is removed from the Elf description.

[kreider204]

Kreider, you are correct. The Wisdom tag should be removed from Elf Spell Resistance, and Half-Elf Spell Resistance.

Thanks, Omote. And the Constitution tag should be removed from the Dwarf Resistant to Poisons as well, yes? (Obviously, saves against poison use CON, but the tag in the heading is unnecessary, and inconsistent formatting-wise with the other entries.)

[Omote]

Kreider, you are correct. The Wisdom tag should be removed from Elf Spell Resistance, and Half-Elf Spell Resistance.

Thanks, Omote. And the Constitution tag should be removed from the Dwarf Resistant to Poisons as well, yes? (Obviously, saves against poison use CON, but the tag in the heading is unnecessary, and inconsistent formatting-wise with the other entries.)

Oh yes. Indeed, remove that constitution tag. I'm sorry I forgot to include that in my initial response. It is curious though as why that bit was not removed in the 6th printing. I'm sure the errata guys were aware of it. Perhaps Traveller can shed some light on that question though.

~O

[kreider204]

Oh yes. Indeed, remove that constitution tag. I'm sorry I forgot to include that in my initial response. It is curious though as why that bit was not removed in the 6th printing. I'm sure the errata guys were aware of it. Perhaps Traveller can shed some light on that question though.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's certainly not a big deal - more of a formatting issue than a substantive one, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything rule-wise, especially given those earlier threads about the Sharp Senses issue.

Thanks again!

[Arduin]

So Dwarf Poison and Half Elf Sleep spell resistance need Attribute removed possibly. Added to list.

[serleran]

Yay! Did they finally remove [Wisdom / Intelligence?] from sharp senses? Woot!

[kreider204]

Yay! Did they finally remove [Wisdom / Intelligence?] from sharp senses? Woot!

Yes indeed! Now they just need to clean up those racial abilities ...

[Rigon]

As they appear on the relevant pages.

Dwarf:
- RESISTANT TO ARCANE MAGIC
- RESISTANT TO FEAR
- RESISTANT TO POISONS (CONSTITUTION)

Elf:
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)

Gnome:
- ENHANCED HEARING

Half-Elf:
- EMPATHY
- SPELL RESISTANCE (Wisdom)
- ENHANCED SENSES

Halfling:
- FEARLESS
- RESISTANT

Half-Orc:
- RESISTANT TO DISEASE

All of these provide bonuses to SIEGE checks. A few list an attribute in parentheses; most do not. Is there a mechanical reason for this, or is it simply inconsistent formatting?

Kreider, you are correct. The Wisdom tag should be removed from Elf Spell Resistance, and Half-Elf Spell Resistance.

~O

I disagree, the bonus is limited in scope to only spells that cause sleep or charm like effects. Perhaps those spells are primarily Wis saves (I didn't check to be sure). As for the dwarf save vs poisons, poisons are Con saves every time.

R-

[Arduin]

I disagree, the bonus is limited in scope to only spells that cause sleep or charm like effects. Perhaps those spells are primarily Wis saves (I didn't check to be sure). As for the dwarf save vs poisons, poisons are Con saves every time.

R-

The wisdom tag has already been removed from the Elf entry. It is still on the Half elf entry.

[kreider204]

I disagree, the bonus is limited in scope to only spells that cause sleep or charm like effects. Perhaps those spells are primarily Wis saves (I didn't check to be sure). As for the dwarf save vs poisons, poisons are Con saves every time.
R-

Yeah, we're not disagreeing about how the rules work. It's about the formatting of the text. Take a look at this screenshot:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

I think we all agree that these two resistances work essentially the same way, by providing a bonus to a save. However, one lists the relevant attribute, and the other does not. For consistency of formatting, they all ought to be one way or the other. Most do NOT list the relevant attribute, so Omote and I are arguing that the few that do shouldn't, for consistency's sake - unless there really is some mechanical difference there (other than which particular attribute is used for the relevant save), which I don't think there is, and certainly no one else is suggesting.

Anyhoo, I have my answer, so thanks to all for the help.

[Rigon]

I disagree, the bonus is limited in scope to only spells that cause sleep or charm like effects. Perhaps those spells are primarily Wis saves (I didn't check to be sure). As for the dwarf save vs poisons, poisons are Con saves every time.
R-

Yeah, we're not disagreeing about how the rules work. It's about the formatting of the text. Take a look at this screenshot:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

I think we all agree that these two resistances work essentially the same way, by providing a bonus to a save. However, one lists the relevant attribute, and the other does not. For consistency of formatting, they all ought to be one way or the other. Most do NOT list the relevant attribute, so Omote and I are arguing that the few that do shouldn't, for consistency's sake - unless there really is some mechanical difference there (other than which particular attribute is used for the relevant save), which I don't think there is, and certainly no one else is suggesting.

Anyhoo, I have my answer, so thanks to all for the help.

Oh, ok. I was reading it wrong. Thanks for the clarification. I rescind my disagreement.

R-

[kreider204]

Oh, ok. I was reading it wrong. Thanks for the clarification. I rescind my disagreement.

Ya, no worries. It's a confusing issue, compounded by those past discussions of Sharp Senses.

[Lord Dynel]

I always saw the attribute listings on those abilities as little reminders of what type of check the bonus was applied to. But yeah, they definitely weren't consistent in their labeling.