M&T white dragon SR errata

kreider204 · Post by **kreider204** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:46 pm

The table from the white dragon entry in the latest printing of M&T:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

There's an SR 1 listed for age 11. As I understand it, all monsters already have an SR of 1 simply to reflect that they get saving throws, so listing an SR of 1 is unnecessary.

So, should the SR 1 simply be ignored, or should it be bumped up to 2 (and the SR 2 for age 12 bumped up to 3)?

Thanks.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:17 pm

kreider204 wrote:The table from the white dragon entry in the latest printing of M&T:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Nf1f ... sp=sharing

There's an SR 1 listed for age 11. As I understand it, all monsters already have an SR of 1 simply to reflect that they get saving throws, so listing an SR of 1 is unnecessary.

So, should the SR 1 simply be ignored, or should it be bumped up to 2 (and the SR 2 for age 12 bumped up to 3)?

Thanks.

SR means if it is rolled, and you roll a 1, they are completely unaffected, even if its a Fireball, Magic missile, etc... a save only gets you half damage, when possible, or no affect at all in the case of things like Charm, Hold Person, etc... So SR and Saves are distinctly different. Plus you get to roll both, first an SR check, then if your affected, you still get your save.

Edit: Oh, and rolls to overcome SR are rolled by the caster, saves are rolled by the target.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:32 pm

@kreider: Age 11 should be 2, and age 12 should be 3.

kreider204 · Post by **kreider204** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:40 pm

Traveller wrote:@kreider: Age 11 should be 2, and age 12 should be 3.

Groovy, thanks!

kreider204 · Post by **kreider204** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:49 pm

Treebore wrote: SR means if it is rolled, and you roll a 1, they are completely unaffected ...

That's not my understanding of it, as it is explained at the beginning of M&T.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:52 pm

kreider204 wrote:
Treebore wrote: SR means if it is rolled, and you roll a 1, they are completely unaffected ...
That's not my understanding of it, as it is explained at the beginning of M&T.

You are correct kreider204. A spell caster has to roll equal to or greater than the SR. Therefore, a caster always rolls to beat an SR of 1. The reason that everything now has an SR of 1 is because I pointed out that rule out to the Trolls and they fixed it.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:17 am

Arduin wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
Treebore wrote: SR means if it is rolled, and you roll a 1, they are completely unaffected ...
That's not my understanding of it, as it is explained at the beginning of M&T.
You are correct kreider204. A spell caster has to roll equal to or greater than the SR. Therefore, a caster always rolls to beat an SR of 1. The reason that everything now has an SR of 1 is because I pointed out that rule out to the Trolls and they fixed it.

Or you can just say it has to be greater. They only screwed up with the "equal to". If they would just say "greater than" the 1 would work. Which I also hate for armor. IF you have to hit a number equal to or greater than their AC, wouldn't that mean their effective protection is actually one lower?
So I like it much better when they just say "greater than". Either way, SR is not the same thing as a save. Different rolls, for different reasons, one is rolled by the "attacker" (spell caster) and one is rolled by the target/defender. That is the main thing, how you want to deal with the numbers assigned, well thats open to house ruling. Some people couldn't deal with an SR of 1, which is understandable when you say you beat it when equal to or greater. When you say it has to beat it, then 1 becomes meaningful. Which is probably what the Trolls meant originally, but when the questions/arguments about it came up, they couldn't recall why they thought an SR of 1 was actually effective and meaningful, so went with keeping the "equal or exceed" wording rather than deleting "equal". Which wouldn't require anyone to up SR's by 1.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:34 pm

Treebore wrote: Or you can just say it has to be greater. They only screwed up with the "equal to". If they would just say "greater than" the 1 would work.

I too suggested that as a fix so that all the monsters & treasure with SR wouldn't have to adjusted. It was rejected as it didn't jibe with the Siege Engine.

As errata to the latest printing of M&T I asked for all SR scores to be incremented by one so as to be accurate. Also, any mods to magic item creation rules for SR items to be adjusted. I don't understand why the monsters weren't fixed.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:47 pm

How would it not jibe with the SIEGE engine? Weird reasoning, from my point of view, thats for sure.

Another thing about SR, is why do they write the sentence that ALL creatures have an SR of 1, but don't give it to ALL creatures in the monster books? Personally, I just ignore that sentence, especially since it makes ZERO sense to me for all creatures to have an SR.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:53 pm

Treebore wrote:How would it not jibe with the SIEGE engine? Weird reasoning, from my point of view, thats for sure.

I was told it was because the S.E. was strictly an Equal to OR Greater than paradigm for success.

Treebore wrote:Another thing about SR, is why do they write the sentence that ALL creatures have an SR of 1, but don't give it to ALL creatures in the monster books? Personally, I just ignore that sentence, especially since it makes ZERO sense to me for all creatures to have an SR.

I was told everyone had an SR of 1 because and SR of 1 now had no practical meaning as a caster had to roll equal to or greater on a D20 (making an SR of 1 = to NO real SR.) So, SR 2 was REALLY equal to an SR of 5% now. The lowest real SR rating...

Personally, I would have made it a greater than roll by casters and changed nothing else in the books. But, that's me.

mmbutter · Post by **mmbutter** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:12 pm

Treebore wrote:Another thing about SR, is why do they write the sentence that ALL creatures have an SR of 1, but don't give it to ALL creatures in the monster books? Personally, I just ignore that sentence, especially since it makes ZERO sense to me for all creatures to have an SR.

They were just copying what is in the PHB, which states that all creatures have an innate SR of 1.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:14 pm

Arduin wrote: Personally, I would have made it a greater than roll by casters and changed nothing else in the books. But, that's me.

I have a House Rules document for a reason. There is a lot I don't agree with in any rule book, let a alone C&C. I can't think of a single RPG I haven't house ruled when I end up running them long term. They tend to hold up well for a few sessions, but long campaigns are the true proving ground, and I have yet to find an RPG that holds up long term as written. Especially campaigns that last years.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:15 pm

mmbutter wrote:
Treebore wrote:Another thing about SR, is why do they write the sentence that ALL creatures have an SR of 1, but don't give it to ALL creatures in the monster books? Personally, I just ignore that sentence, especially since it makes ZERO sense to me for all creatures to have an SR.
They were just copying what is in the PHB, which states that all creatures have an innate SR of 1.

I know that. I don't even recall seeing it at all in ANY of the monster books, I've only noticed it in the PHB. Regardless, it makes zero sense to me, so I ignore it.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:20 pm

Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote: Personally, I would have made it a greater than roll by casters and changed nothing else in the books. But, that's me.
I have a House Rules document for a reason. There is a lot I don't agree with in any rule book, let a alone C&C. I can't think of a single RPG I haven't house ruled when I end up running them long term. They tend to hold up well for a few sessions, but long campaigns are the true proving ground, and I have yet to find an RPG that holds up long term as written. Especially campaigns that last years.

3.X caused me to produce my largest house rule doc to date. (4E wasn't worth bothering with) C&C has required less house rules, for me, than any prior edition of "D&D". About one long page.

kreider204 · Post by **kreider204** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:27 am

Guys, I didn't mean to start the Great SR Debate again.

I was just asking about the errata, given the RAW. Don't spat on my account ...

Snoring Rock · Post by **Snoring Rock** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:36 pm

I wish we would have caught this before it was printed.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:06 pm

It wasn't part of the "collected" errata forum thread, that was pre-production?

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:34 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:It wasn't part of the "collected" errata forum thread, that was pre-production?

It was part of the material sent to the trolls.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:34 pm

That's what I thought. So it was "caught" before printing. Oh well, as long as we keep it in our minds, there shouldn't be an issue.

My question is on a different level of thinking. Was the "1" originally an error? SR works in an "equal or greater" capacity. If the "1" on the white dragon's SR (or any creature with a 1) was a simple error, an oversight, then just bump it up one and be done. But if it was an error because someone didn't understand the mechanics of SR (meaning, they thought the mechanic was "greater" instead of "equal or greater") then should all SR's get bumped up by one? That would be my question. I'm tending to think the former (just an oversight).

Maybe a Troll or serl could chime in here.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:41 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:That's what I thought. So it was "caught" before printing. Oh well, as long as we keep it in our minds, there shouldn't be an issue.

It was brought up in 2012 when they made the SR rule change. It was brought up in errata as soon as the Triple KS was announced.

Lord Dynel wrote:My question is on a different level of thinking. Was the "1" originally an error? SR works in an "equal or greater" capacity. If the "1" on the white dragon's SR (or any creature with a 1) was a simple error, an oversight, then just bump it up one and be done. But if it was an error because someone didn't understand the mechanics of SR (meaning, they thought the mechanic was "greater" instead of "equal or greater") then should all SR's get bumped up by one? That would be my question.

Maybe a Troll or serl could chime in here.

No idea. I first mentioned the rule/stat inconsistency 3 years ago when I was porting a 1st Ed AD&D monster to C&C and had trouble with its MR% to C&C SR#. From the then ensuing conversation it appears that SR#'s were figured as 5% = SR1 ... 100% = SR20. Without regard to the Siege Engine. Just system to system translation error.

Snoring Rock · Post by **Snoring Rock** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:47 pm

Check out Silver Dragon. It has the 1 listed at age category 1. I think that given that it is equal or greater, the SR 1 technically should never show up. Although technically correct, the SR 1 at age 1 is acceptable, it should be marked with a slash like other table for consistency.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:10 pm

Snoring Rock wrote:Check out Silver Dragon. It has the 1 listed at age category 1. I think that given that it is equal or greater, the SR 1 technically should never show up. Although technically correct, the SR 1 at age 1 is acceptable, it should be marked with a slash like other table for consistency.

It is actually incorrect. The SR is supposed to be 2, not 1. The SR at 1 was set when it was assumed that the roll was GREATER than not, greater or equal to... (5% of the time spells were supposed to fail against it)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:21 pm

Yeah, like I said earlier, I am just going with "Greater than" so it all works as written.

Snoring Rock · Post by **Snoring Rock** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:14 pm

Arduin wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:Check out Silver Dragon. It has the 1 listed at age category 1. I think that given that it is equal or greater, the SR 1 technically should never show up. Although technically correct, the SR 1 at age 1 is acceptable, it should be marked with a slash like other table for consistency.
It is actually incorrect. The SR is supposed to be 2, not 1. The SR at 1 was set when it was assumed that the roll was GREATER than not, greater or equal to... (5% of the time spells were supposed to fail against it)

ok, so why do the rest of the dragon tables not show any 1's anywhere except of course on the white and silver dragons? More errata!

kreider204 · Post by **kreider204** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:10 pm

Snoring Rock wrote:Check out Silver Dragon. It has the 1 listed at age category 1. I think that given that it is equal or greater, the SR 1 technically should never show up. Although technically correct, the SR 1 at age 1 is acceptable, it should be marked with a slash like other table for consistency.

That's not the SR - that's the DB.

e

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:18 pm

Snoring Rock wrote:
ok, so why do the rest of the dragon tables not show any 1's anywhere except of course on the white and silver dragons? More errata!

Probably because no other dragons had an SR of 5% but were higher than that. If you have an older printing, you can easily check what they did or didn't do. Looking at the PRIOR printing of M&T it is clear they they screwed up and did NOT adjust the SR's as needed.

BTW, the Silver dragon is listed with an SR of 2.

Snoring Rock · Post by **Snoring Rock** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:51 pm

Arduin wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:
ok, so why do the rest of the dragon tables not show any 1's anywhere except of course on the white and silver dragons? More errata!
Probably because no other dragons had an SR of 5% but were higher than that. If you have an older printing, you can easily check what they did or didn't do. Looking at the PRIOR printing of M&T it is clear they they screwed up and did NOT adjust the SR's as needed.

BTW, the Silver dragon is listed with an SR of 2.

No, what I am saying is that at age level one, the silver dragon had SR1 printed in the chart. Other dragons do not show anything in the chart until they reach SR 2. I think it should be consistent and all start with 2, not some at 1. Correct or not, 1 should not even be there unless it is consistently on all of them.

Arduin · Post by **Arduin** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:27 pm

Snoring Rock wrote: Correct or not, 1 should not even be there unless it is consistently on all of them.

Each dragon type has different qualities and develop at different rates. It has been that way since D&D 1st Ed.

I'm only looking at rule mechanic errata vis-a-vis the SR conversion issue.

Captain_K · Post by **Captain_K** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:55 pm

If you all decide it is really an issue, make sure Traveller sees this..

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:56 pm

I've already seen it, as I've been following this thread all along. It's a definite that the white dragon needs its SR bumped by 1 as with the change in all creatures having a SR of 1 it's rather odd that the first ten ages all have a dash, then you have SR 1 at age 11 and SR2 at age 12. For the silver dragon, changing the SR at age 1 to a dash and leaving the table alone is appropriate. The other dragons, along with all the other creatures in the book with a SR of greater than 1, I don't recommend changing at all.

There's simply no need. In terms of how the game mechanic actually operates, it doesn't matter if a creature has a SR of 1 or SR of 20. Two rolls are made for the creature, regardless of what its SR actually is. The first roll is the d20 roll to see if the spell affects the creature, and the second is the regular saving throw. The only difference between the two extremes is that with a SR of 1, the d20 roll is automatically successful. Thus since the roll is automatically successful, no d20 roll to beat spell resistance need be made.

Troll Lord Games

M&T white dragon SR errata

M&T white dragon SR errata

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