Anti-Paladin

[Captain_K]

I can see a place for such a NPC... does anyone have a favored write up? Any reason "The Knight of Venom" should not ride again?

[Lurker]

I can see a place for such a NPC... does anyone have a favored write up? Any reason "The Knight of Venom" should not ride again?

I love them as an NPC. I'd even add the various other Paladin versions based on alignment - I can't remember which dragon that article was in.

[Portly Fighter]

Dragon 106, A Plethora of Paladins is where the Paladin for every alignment was written up.

Here is a link to an Anti-Paladin write up that should be easily used with C&C written by Venger Satanis of Draconic Magazine and various other stuff.

http://www.draconicmagazine.com/article ... n-subclass

[Captain_K]

Looks interesting, thank you.

I think I will blend that with the one out of the dragon some years back.. any other input?

Capt K

[alcyone]

There's an article about the anti-paladin in the new Gygax but I haven't read it yet.

[Tadhg]

There's an article about the anti-paladin in the new Gygax but I haven't read it yet.

Is that mag anygood? I'm way behind on knowing anything about it.

[Captain_K]

I only recall the Anti-Paladin from July 1980 Dragon #39 by George Laking and Tim Mestford. Going to re-read that, blend it with the one noted above and with my thoughts on "the opposite of a Paladin" and see what I get...

Big question Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil.. is the shadow in the mirror a complete opposite or simply opposition a reflection... twisted honor to evil.. not sure which I find more evil.. I kind of like my Black Knight to reflect the honor and chivalry taken to its natural extreme.

Like a holy man dealing in human flesh that is not "his kind".. so its noble and holy...

Thoughts??

[Lord Dynel]

There's an article about the anti-paladin in the new Gygax but I haven't read it yet.

Is that mag anygood? I'm way behind on knowing anything about it.

Same here, Aergraith...I haven't had a chance to read it yet, either.

Rhu, it's decent. I know I'm probably sounding a bit cliche, but I wish it was more old-school (and retro clone) than it is. I know it probably needs to appeal to as wide as audience as it can, to remain viable. I almost didn't re-sub after #4, but I did. I want to like it more than I do, I really do. For me, personally, there's a little over half as far as interesting articles vs. ones I'm not interested in. YMMV, of course.

[Captain_K]

What or where is the "new Gygax"?

[Lord Dynel]

What or where is the "new Gygax"?

Try this, Captain!

[Captain_K]

Thanks!

Also, just to be sure, you are lamenting Gygax not being old school enough, not the Anti-Paladin in particular....

[Litzen Tallister]

I've looked through the anti-paladin article and it looks fairly good and as if it could be ported to C&C. However, I think it might require some paring down to fit within C&C's milieu. Regarding Gygax Magazine in general, it's still in its early days, but shows a lot of promise. As a former Dragon Magazine subscriber from the days of yore, that I can get a magazine on rpgs delivered to my door again (with a remarkably similar title font) makes me happy. The material does run the gamut from more classic material to the modern. However, I think a lot of it is geared more to the OSR than not. But I would agree that there is a wide base of material covered and thus a chance that a chunk of the articles are going to be of little direct interest in any given magazine. That being said, in an age of ebooks and the death of the niche magazine, I do like having a physical item to read.

[Lurker]

I only recall the Anti-Paladin from July 1980 Dragon #39 by George Laking and Tim Mestford. Going to re-read that, blend it with the one noted above and with my thoughts on "the opposite of a Paladin" and see what I get...

Big question Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil.. is the shadow in the mirror a complete opposite or simply opposition a reflection... twisted honor to evil.. not sure which I find more evil.. I kind of like my Black Knight to reflect the honor and chivalry taken to its natural extreme.

Like a holy man dealing in human flesh that is not "his kind".. so its noble and holy...

Thoughts??

I know it isn't by the books, but I always pictured it as a twisting of honor & chivalry not a complete reversal of it. As such I've played them as a more LE than CE. However, I'd also argue that the emphasis is on the 'evil' at the cost of the lawful. Kind of a very limited and twisted form of lawful. So, at times it may not seem lawful. Boy, it is hard to explain it ... I need more coffee.

[Captain_K]

I'm with you 100% strict "law" strict honor, but pushed to the inhuman immoral end, total evil in action, hiding behind or allowing those strict "laws" to permit and encourage the evil! I'm going to make the "Un-Paladin" have two options CE and LW with minor power changes.

[Lord Dynel]

Thanks!

Also, just to be sure, you are lamenting Gygax not being old school enough, not the Anti-Paladin in particular....

Yes, sir. And it's just a personal nitpick of mine. The articles in Gygax that I like, I love. The ones I don't...I don't. As it stands, there's just enough in it to keep me subscribed. Again, that's a personal opinion.

But yeah, the anti-paladin has been around quite a long time. It's got enough old-school cred.

As as aside, I like how the new D&D edition has viewed the paladin. It seems like they've gone away from the alignment restriction and have embraced a more "champion of the god" attitude.

[Captain_K]

thanks, going to work one up here soon.

[serleran]

I do not like the concept of "antipaladin" preferring to simply have paladins of a different ethos. An "antipaladin" would be a pacifist atheist.

[MLMartin97]

Back in 1994, I was struck by the sidebar in the 2E Complete Paladin's Handbook about 'Why Not Antipaladins?' that argued that the idea didn't really work with the themes of the class--the paladin comes from a tradition where Good is demanding but rewarding, while Evil is easier (and so the forces of Evil tend to outnumber those of good) but of lesser quality. You can see some of this elsewhere in D&D lore--the metallic dragons are typically just a bit stronger than their chromatic counterparts, for example.

Now, I've seen enough dark knights and Sith Lords that I think there's room for the 'dark side of the paladin', but I think it should be more a blasphemous mockery than a mirror imaging.

[Lurker]

Back in 1994, I was struck by the sidebar in the 2E Complete Paladin's Handbook about 'Why Not Antipaladins?' that argued that the idea didn't really work with the themes of the class--the paladin comes from a tradition where Good is demanding but rewarding, while Evil is easier (and so the forces of Evil tend to outnumber those of good) but of lesser quality. You can see some of this elsewhere in D&D lore--the metallic dragons are typically just a bit stronger than their chromatic counterparts, for example.

Now, I've seen enough dark knights and Sith Lords that I think there's room for the 'dark side of the paladin', but I think it should be more a blasphemous mockery than a mirror imaging.

Put much more eloquently than I was able to put it

[Captain_K]

Dark side and Sithish coming your way.. I'm about done, will post here if all goes well this weekend for your review, comment and hopefully edit, cause I got a job for this guy... ;}

[Captain_K]

The Adversary is coming... here's the intro.. thanks for the input and some great thoughts and quotes.. Serleran I stole yours wholes sale ;}

The Adversary is truly Hell’s Champion. This class is a thoroughly evil holy warrior chosen for adherence and devotion to an evil deity, demon, devil, or similar evil cause. They are every Paladin’s nemesis, they are their opposition. Adversaries have been called “Anti-Paladins”, but they are only opposite to the Paladin in alignment, they are neither pacifists nor atheists, they are strongly tied to evil divinities, demons, or devils and they are very capable warriors.
There are typically two varieties of these most evil warriors, those that are Chaotic Evil and those that are Lawful Evil. These powerful warriors are followers of demons and gods (such as Lolth, Kali, or Ares) or devils and gods (such as Set, Druaga, or Inanna) based upon their matching alignment/nature.
Most Adversaries begin play at first level like any other character or NPC. Alternately, an Adversary can be created at any level due to the drastic conversion of a fallen Paladin. These rare conversions from faithful Paladin to evil Adversary are appropriate only when a Paladin has intentionally forsaken his vows and is guided onto a far darker path. Like a wicked shepherd guiding a black sheep, clerics, devils, demons, or some other divinities devoted to Evil take pride in twisting wayward oath-breaking Paladins to this final vocation as an Adversary. These evil powers always grant all abilities and benefits of the Adversary class to the converting Paladin at the same level, or in rare cases, one level higher than the original Paladin class level... Evil has some benefits!