Replacing/redefining the Charisma Attribute

[Arduin]

Just some rule musings...

C&C has greatly elevated the importance of Char for a PC. (which I like) However, what is now covered is MUCH more than what charisma is. What with it covering resistance to death spells, imposing ones will against another, etc. My new players kept asking questions.

I now call it Will Power (Wil). It is a measure of one's élan vital & force of personality. The spiritual equivalent of the body's Constitution in many ways. It is not the much more shallow "charisma" (as defined in our language) embodied by actors and politicians. Mere charisma would never stop a force like a death spell and increase # of undead one can turn. It is about control & personal power. Not attractiveness.

I think that this will communicate what it is to my new players.

[Tadhg]

Will power sounds good. If one needs attraction/beauty, one can have a comeliness roll. I had my players roll this for my online game ~ mostly for a few laughs!

[Arduin]

Will power sounds good. If one needs attraction/beauty, one can have a comeliness roll. I had my players roll this for my online game ~ mostly for a few laughs!

Comeliness was a good idea I think. Whether rolled or chosen by the player. There are many situations where there is only visual interaction and that stat would be very meaningful. Should probably be noted in the PC physical description on the char sheet

[serleran]

In general, I feel like Ken St. Andre did about Wisdom.... I'd toss out Charisma completely. Not sure what to replace it with... maybe Grace. Hmm. Would explain why clerics and paladins need so much.

[Arduin]

In general, I feel like Ken St. Andre did about Wisdom.... I'd toss out Charisma completely. Not sure what to replace it with... maybe Grace. Hmm. Would explain why clerics and paladins need so much.

Grace wouldn't fully fit its role in the game (if you maintained everything else that is). How many undead turned is a function of will power per the rules.

Would be interesting to have it as it is defined though.

[Kayolan]

Charisma is a weird attribute for sure. The PHB defines it as the following: This attribute represents strength of personality, willpower, leadership and attractiveness.

It's actually two attributes (perhaps even 3 or 4) rolled into one and I can see the inclination to separate them.

[Arduin]

Charisma is a weird attribute for sure. The PHB defines it as the following: This attribute represents strength of personality, willpower, leadership and attractiveness.

It's actually two attributes (perhaps even 3 or 4) rolled into one and I can see the inclination to separate them.

Yes, it would be like having Str, Con & Wis as one stat.

[obatron]

Call it Presence like in the Hero game...then you can use if for intimidation, etc.

[Arduin]

Call it Presence like in the Hero game...then you can use if for intimidation, etc.

Too narrow like Charisma

[maasenstodt]

In general, I feel like Ken St. Andre did about Wisdom.... I'd toss out Charisma completely. Not sure what to replace it with... maybe Grace. Hmm. Would explain why clerics and paladins need so much.

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

[Treebore]

I'd have no problem with it since I describe CHA as the force of one's personality. Their literal ability to project their will over themselves and their surroundings.

[Arduin]

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

Um, we're talking about C&C.

[Treebore]

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

Um, we're talking about C&C.

Its still pretty darn important in C&C. Especially when it comes to interrogations and just getting people to talk to you. Not to mention when its time to make the saves CHA is effective against. Which is one of the reasons why I like C&C, you don't really have a stat you should "throw away". If you do, it will bite you.

[Arduin]

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

Um, we're talking about C&C.

Its still pretty darn important in C&C. Especially when it comes to interrogations and just getting people to talk to you. Not to mention when its time to make the saves CHA is effective against. Which is one of the reasons why I like C&C, you don't really have a stat you should "throw away". If you do, it will bite you.

That was my point. In D&D it was a dump stat for most classes. Not so in C&C. Which is nice. (the other poster was being facetious as Char was NOT even close to being "the most critical stat there is in old school D&D".

[maasenstodt]

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

Um, we're talking about C&C.

Amazingly enough, I'm cognizant of that. I just happen to think that C&C fits into the old school D&D genre of games.

Going back to the very origin of the game, Charisma has been a massively important stat. Having loyal henchmen backing you up is a huge advantage. That's certainly what my decades of playing has made clear, anyhow. While things like ascending vs. descending AC don't fundamentally change the game, I think removing Charisma from C&C would go a long way towards making it an entirely different game from old school D&D.

[Treebore]

Given that Charisma is the most critical stat there is in old school D&D, I can't imagine tossing it out. What's a bonus to hit or an additional language worth in comparison with having a larger and more capable retinue?

Um, we're talking about C&C.

Amazingly enough, I'm cognizant of that. I just happen to think that C&C fits into the old school D&D genre of games.

Going back to the very origin of the game, Charisma has been a massively important stat. Having loyal henchmen backing you up is a huge advantage. That's certainly what my decades of playing has made clear, anyhow. While things like ascending vs. descending AC don't fundamentally change the game, I think removing Charisma from C&C would go a long way towards making it an entirely different game from old school D&D.

I agree, just in most 1E AD&D games I played in, we weren't allowed to get/use Henchman and followers, and if we were, we always had to have them stay back at whatever our "stronghold" was.

[maasenstodt]

That was my point. In D&D it was a dump stat for most classes. Not so in C&C. Which is nice. (the other poster was being facetious as Char was NOT even close to being "the most critical stat there is in old school D&D".

I'm not being facetious in the least. Charisma is a critically important stat, and has been since the very beginning. The ability to better get the retainers you want, to have more of them, and for those retainers to be tougher under fire is worth a heck of a lot more than a bonus to hit.

I think it's instructive that Jim Ward (a early veteran of D&D) recognized, when designing Metamorphosis Alpha, that Pure Strain Humans, despite lacking the incredible mutant powers possessed by other characters, were just as playable an option by virtue of the fact that they had access to a Charisma stat (called Leadership Potential, in that game), while mutants did not.

[maasenstodt]

I agree, just in most 1E AD&D games I played in, we weren't allowed to get/use Henchman and followers, and if we were, we always had to have them stay back at whatever our "stronghold" was.

And I'd guess (and certainly hope) that you still enjoyed the game, which is the point of it all.

But as I imagine you realize, when your referee disallowed the use of retainers, you certainly weren't playing the game as it was designed, and you missed out on part of the experience. To me, I think that kind of ruling is akin to disallowing Clerics from going on adventures.

[mbeacom]

Like others here, Charisma has always been incredibly important in my games, long before C&C. I would not say C&C elevated its importance, but perhaps changed where it is useful. We used Charisma very frequently in regard to retainers and henchman. And it made a huge difference. I always felt, years later, that people who talked about CHA being a dump stat weren't really playing the same game, we were, the one that was actually in the old D&D books if they thought you didn't need CHA almost every session. And like some others, I don't really feel like it needed to be redefined. If you're familiar with history, word origins and meaning, you'll know that Charisma contains so much more than just ones ability to get their way or get others to follow. It has always had a much deeper meaning for the power of ones spirit and in particular the relation with ones deity. These are very much the kinds of things that would resist a death spell without any re-definition. The original charisms, and gifts, charismatics were spiritual in nature, things like faith, healing, miracles and prophecy. Charisma as a word contains much more than how people react to you or the art of persuasion. And I think in choosing it for a key stat in D&D, the designers knew this and took it into consideration, the whole of its meaning. Same with the trolls.

[Lurker]

I know what tree is saying about henchmen being left back at the stronghold - which is a significant hinderance to the benefit of having a high CHA. The group I first played in back in the day (the same group that was influncial in my long lasting dislike of playing a MU) never let henchmen or followers be a significant part of the game.

However, the second group (made up of true friends that I introduced to gaming) was more friendly and did more role playing instead of hack and slash quasi-evil gaming. That quickly showed how powerful a good cha could be and how useful henchmen and followers truly are. With that, this group developed my love for the paladin class which must have a good cha to be effective.

Now to the origin of the thread, is C&C cha misnamed or does it need to be changed?

Miss named, possibly, but for ease of the game I can't see any other name that would fit better.

For changed or broken apart .... I can see an argument for it, but also think that if you significantly change it or break it up into different stats you'll be hamstringing the character. You'll be taking all those amorphous ideas that make up cha - personality, force of will, leadership, etc etc etc and spreading them out. Yes you may be able to focus on one area of it, but all the rest will suffer. This will weaken the character and may be creating multiple dump stats which will further unbalance the game. IMHO