Old School vs Rules Light

[slimykuotoan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU9daGnO_Sw

[Buttmonkey]

Interesting video. Some quick thoughts:

1. "Rules lite" seems to be a relative expression. There isn't a specific definition or paradigm for rules lite. Some rules sets are lighter than others, but I think you can have a rules lite system that is crunchier than another rules lite system.

2. Just because you can add 200 pages of house rules to an old school game doesn't mean everyone did. I think he is putting up a bit of a straw man when he talks about massive house rules in the DM's head or in a document.

3. He seems to be painting every pre-1990 version of D&D and every retroclone with the same brush. I don't think it is fair to say the rules complexity and crunchiness of 1E is the same as B/X or BFRPG. B/X is a hell of a lot more stripped down than 1E. C&C is certainly streamlined by comparison with a unified mechanic (the SIEGE engine).

4. It's also a bit unfair to bring up the wealth of house rules used in actual play as a criticism without also noting that many (most?) groups discarded a lot of the bizarre crunchiness that came with 1E. I'm sure many groups discarded the restrictions limiting a party to no more than 3 rangers or race/class restrictions, for example. From my experience, 1E as actually played in the 80s was generally a much less crunchy game than RAW. That 1 hit point fighter or magic user at first level was never to be seen in any game I ever played in.

5. I agree that 3E's 3 saving throws system is better than the pre-3E system, but I don't really think having 5 saving throws versus 3 makes pre-1990 D&D significantly less rules lite, particularly when compared to the bloat of 3.5E.

6. The guy does have a valid point that there is a difference between nostalgia and rules lite, but I also think his experience of the crunchiness of pre-1990s D&D (and that of the retroclones) does not match my experience.

[Buttmonkey]

7. Oh, and show me a monster stat block for Pathfinder next to a stat block for Labyrinth Lord and then try to tell me pre-1990 D&D isn't rules lite by comparison.

[Arduin]

Old School vs Rules Light ???

They aren't mutually exclusive at all. You should find another video source with someone who is a bit more familiar with the subject.

[alcyone]

Again, he seems to have his facts right but I don't agree with his conclusions; his bad is my good.

Besides, if you spend years learning all of these house rules and clarifications, why do you then want to throw them away?

I agree that these games aren't "rules light". That doesn't bother me much.

Pathfinder is fun at low levels if someone else is running it.

[Treebore]

My definition of rules lite is when I can remember the rules for 90% of the situations. Which is the case for me for RPG's like C&C, Traveller and a few others. For me, RPG's like Pathfinder 3E, 4E or 5E D&D, or even 2E with all the "Optional" books, Eclipse Phase, Chthulhu Tech, Dresden Files, Starblazers, Legend of the 5 Rings and many others are not rules lite.

[alcyone]

My standard for "Rules Lite" would be RISUS or Questers of the Middle Realms (PDQ system). These are systems you can learn drunk in a couple of minutes. There are certainly degrees to this sort of thing, but I have never found it to be a particularly useful indicator when I am looking for a game to buy or play.

[Relaxo]

It don't get much more rules lite than TWERPS.
Characters have only one ability, Strength. Rules sections cover Strength, Combat, and "How to Do Everything."
LOL

[concobar]

C&C or LL are both rules light with LL also being old school.

[serleran]

Every game is as light as you allow it to be. Just as it is "old school." It is not the game, but how it is played.

[alcyone]

What irks me is the idea that the only reasons you might play one of these games is it's rules light (because we aren't competent enough to study and remember rules) or we are nostalgic (mid-life crisis). Because other than that, they have no redeemung qualities when there are more modern, coherent, and advanced systems.

It would irk me more if people saying stuff like that kept people from adopting these games so I had no one to play with, but that doesn't seem to have happened, so that calms me down.

[Tadhg]

I tried . . but boring delivery. Couldn't stand anymore at 1:47

Too much of this crap out there as it's so easy these days. You could spend the rest of your life watching people comment on D&D or pretty much any other subject!

[concobar]

Tetsubo is a strange cat.

I prefer Vids by Samwise personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG2J2h08BOM

[Treebore]

I've gotten to the point where I don't care what some strangers opinion is. All I care about is what the people I play with think. Even we don't think the same, because if they did they all would adopt all of my house rules and run games the same way I do. None of them do. We each do things our own way, and thats fine, because as far as I am concerned, that is how it is meant to be.

[serleran]

Sometimes, and this is selfish, I don't care if the players have fun.

For about 5 minutes, when the current villains are introduced. 'Cause I needs some fun time too.