Action or options for the "stunned"

[Captain_K]

Where does it say what a "stunned", as in monk punched, character or creature can do? It seems obvious less than normal. Others are at a +2 to hit them. But it seems like they can still actively defend themselves, keep their DEX bonus etc. Not attack I would assume..

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Treebore]

The Monks Stun is different than the general Stun, and is described in the Monks class description pages. The General Stun only gives a +2 bonus to hit whatever is stunned. The Monk Stun, at least since the 4th printing, makes them helpless for something like 1D4 rounds. Read the description for the precise wording.

[Captain_K]

I agree that general "stun" is for some "unknown" duration and the Monk power is for d4 rounds per the PH... my question is not the duration, but what can the stunned person do?
1) Not able to attack?
2) Able to defend themselves? Do they still get their shield or dex bonus while stunned?
3) Able to talk?

Now that you discuss this, what other actions cause someone to be stunned? I think some spells. Any other physical attacks or monster attacks?

[Treebore]

The general Stun does not inhibit anyone. All attackers are just +2 for one round. No other affect. Only the Monk can make someone be Stunned AND Unable to act for 1D4 rounds. I think the only reason we do the Stun Condition for one round is because the only guidance we could find on it was in the Sound Burst spell. Then when we saw that the Monk description says Stunned AND cannot take actions, we determined that the Trolls must mean in all other instances that you can act. Plus, the Monk description is the only place the Trolls gave a duration of greater than 1 round. The only other place, outside of spells and the Monk class description, that we found describing Stun was in the Combat section of the PHB on the on the Situational Modifiers table. Then again, this is C&C, so you can do it however you wish.

Now I have never looked to see if the CKG clarified any of this any further, so that may be worth looking at.

[Captain_K]

Color spray stuns creatures for one round.

So you think a stunned person, when not stunned by a monk, can still attack, just kind of "dazed" and others get +2 to hit them that one round only... interesting and not to damaging or dangerous.

I would have assumed all stunned people cannot attack, but they could defend themselves; all be it at a -2 to their AC. This -2 is really not that big a penalty compared to a prone or blind at +5.. heck that's simply on their knees or some similar significant disadvantaging position (laying on back, etc.). The monk's description for stun is "..unable to ACT for ..." I would assume ACT is meant to mean in the active attacking mode, move, cast spells, but could defend themselves because the stun penalty is only -2 to AC. I would think if shield and dex were also taken away for stunned folks it would have been noted in the description of stun or the monk.

Personally, I'm leaning toward all folks who are stunned have the same impact and same affect. Like sleep, magical or natural, fey or spell, sleep is sleep.. unless there are specific descriptions telling me otherwise... so in the case of stunning I'm leaning towards the spells tell you one round duration and the monk tells you d4 duration, but other than that all have the same stun effect of defend at -2 to AC but no offensive actions or movement allowed when stunned.

Thoughts?

[Tadhg]

Briefly . . thinking of mental stuns vs. physical stuns.

And then magic stuns vs. again physical stuns.

We had some serious discussions in our online games re: sound burst.

[Arduin]

The Monk & spell stuns are defined. Just make up mundane stun rules based on physical severity. Being stunned by a near miss of a 500 lbs. GP bomb is going to be worse than being slapped hard by a lady. Common sense tells you that not all stunning is the same.

[serleran]

I normally impose an initiative penalty. Stunned does not mean paralyzed.

[Arduin]

I normally impose an initiative penalty. Stunned does not mean paralyzed.

stunned, verb
past tense: stunned; past participle: stunned

knock unconscious or into a dazed or semiconscious state.
"the man was strangled after being stunned by a blow to the head"

[Daniel]

I normally impose an initiative penalty. Stunned does not mean paralyzed.

stunned, verb
past tense: stunned; past participle: stunned

knock unconscious or into a dazed or semiconscious state.
"the man was strangled after being stunned by a blow to the head"

Yep, when they say someone was stunned I think semiconscious at best.

[serleran]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

And... being "semiconscious" does not mean unable to do anything, or catatonic. It may limit what can be done, and slow it down, but it does not prevent action. Even concerted action.

[Rigon]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

And... being "semiconscious" does not mean unable to do anything, or catatonic. It may limit what can be done, and slow it down, but it does not prevent action. Even concerted action.

Agreed. I equate stunned with being staggered.

R-

[Arduin]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

I assume that when an author uses a word that the definition being used is the common one unless otherwise noted. I DON'T assume that the author is NOT using the correct definition.

To assume that the words are NOT being used with any particular definition in mind or that the author intentionally left it to be guessed at, is beyond bizarre.

[serleran]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

I assume that when an author uses a word that the definition being used is the common one unless otherwise noted. I DON'T assume that the author is NOT using the correct definition. To assume that the words are NOT being used with any particular definition in mind is beyond bizarre.

Sure, but clearly the word has at least two implementations in game -- how the monk causes an effect and everything else. Since the monk and all others are not identical, the more general one must have less restrictions, or at minimum be somehow categorically separate or there would be no differentiation necessary. Therefore, if the monk causes something similar to the dictionary meaning, it is not possible that the others do.... at least not the same degree.

[Arduin]

Sure, but clearly the word has at least two implementations in game -- how the monk causes an effect and everything else. Since the monk and all others are not identical, the more general one must have less restrictions, or at minimum be somehow categorically separate or there would be no differentiation necessary. Therefore, if the monk causes something similar to the dictionary meaning, it is not possible that the others do.... at least not the same degree.

That logic is faulty. If I drop a 100 lbs. rock on your head and stun you, it may well, and probably is, more severe than being smacked by a monk. A monk only stuns (makes one semi or unconscious) for up to 40 seconds. The aforementioned rock could EASILY knock one semi-conscious for several minutes...

That the effect from a monk is defined does not change the effects of mundane items.

[Daniel]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

And... being "semiconscious" does not mean unable to do anything, or catatonic. It may limit what can be done, and slow it down, but it does not prevent action. Even concerted action.

Yes, often games do not follow reality, thus we all accept a small amount of liberty with things.

But I think I would be reluctant to allow a stunned person to act without some form of restrictions.

[Rigon]

Dictionaries and games do not follow the same rules for semantics.

And... being "semiconscious" does not mean unable to do anything, or catatonic. It may limit what can be done, and slow it down, but it does not prevent action. Even concerted action.

Yes, often games do not follow reality, thus we all accept a small amount of liberty with things.

But I think I would be reluctant to allow a stunned person to act without some form of restrictions.

And thus his negative to initiative.

Personally, I do it by the book (-2 to AC).

R-

[Treebore]

Yep, Stunned is meant to be a lesser affect than Prone or Helpless, so its either +2 to hit them, or -2 to their AC, whichever way you prefer. So regardless of what Stunned may mean to gamers in general, in C&C the only definition it is given is +2 to hit them while stunned, and in the case of the Monk's attacks, being unable to act, both for 1D4 rounds. So to re interpret the Dictionary Definition based upon what YOU think it should mean is disingenuous to the stated rules. Now what you want to do for your own games is whatever you want it to be, but the rules make it pretty clear that being Stunned only means you are disoriented enough to give your opponents a +2 to hit you. If you want to make it far more powerful, like in 3E D&D, and have it incapacitate the Stunned individual, you will then need to give the -5 or -10 penalties, despite the fact that the rules clearly do not mean for Stunned to be that powerful in C&C.

[Captain_K]

When someone in CnC is knocked PRONE we assume that means down "lying flat, especially face downward" per an on line dictionary. Going to Arduin's source I think and going to the second definition "astonish or shock (someone) so that they are temporarily unable to react" I would say is where our CnC use of the word comes in simply because the penalty is -2 of stunned and -5 for prone or blind (similar to thief bonus for back or sneak attacks).

I like one game term to mean the same basic thing. Personally I'm going to rule that stunned is unable to attack or move but can defend themselves with a -2 to AC penalty due to affects of the stun. This would be the same no matter how you get stunned... the monk's stun lasts d4 rounds and if by other method (spells noted above) same affect, same AC penalty just the duration is per the spell (normally one round I think).

"Doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.. well unless you're dealing with a Microsoft product." Employing that cynical thought, I want the word to mean the same thing in general.

Great discussion...

[Captain_K]

Traveler, Too late to get definitions or clarifications in the CKG?

[Snoring Rock]

The Monk & spell stuns are defined. Just make up mundane stun rules based on physical severity. Being stunned by a near miss of a 500 lbs. GP bomb is going to be worse than being slapped hard by a lady. Common sense tells you that not all stunning is the same.

I don't know. I have been slapped (in my youth) by some ladies and I prefer the bombs now....

[Rigon]

Several sound bursts were cast last night in my game and they all resulted in one round of -2 to AC for the recipient, per the RAW in the situational modifier chart on page 175 of the 6th print PHB.

R-

[Snoring Rock]

Several sound bursts were cast last night in my game and they all resulted in one round of -2 to AC for the recipient, per the RAW in the situational modifier chart on page 175 of the 6th print PHB.

R-

+1 This.

[Lurker]

From real life experience, combative training, combat with RPGs and mortars impacting way to close, and being danger close to a broacher charge when it went off (and one big charge to blow through a reinforced concrete wall - with me and the master breacher in the back of the stack right next to a hole in the wall that allowed the concussion to smack us full force - after it was over it was funny but not when it hit) I'll say I have been stunned before.

To me the best way to describe it is the opening of "Saving Pvt Ryan". Things are wonkie and you are slow/off. However, you are not 'semi conscious' and severely hampered. You can still move, shoot, and communicate. You just aren't working at 100%.

Heck, I've seen guys in a room with a crasher thrown into it still be able to shoot at the team coming through the door. Admittedly the shots weren't well aimed and they were firing in general direction they thought we were at.

With that, I can see an initiative negative, and/or an AC negative, and/or a negative to any action (maybe all 3) for a short period of time. But, I couldn't see a knocked down flat on your back and unable to move result. That is too steep for a simple stun. If that was the case, me and most guys I deployed with would have not made it back in one piece

As for the monk's ability. I see it as a martial artist's ability to land a blow right on the reset button -just below the ear or on the chin, and completely knock the opponent out with the hit. Again, real life combative experience here. I hate to say I never saw the strike coming in I just woke up later with ringing in my ears. So, for that special ability I do see the 'no action' for x amount of time.

[Captain_K]

Slowly swaying toward the Monk Stun attack is special.. wish they would have used a different word like knocked prone or some such...

[Lurker]

Slowly swaying toward the Monk Stun attack is special.. wish they would have used a different word like knocked prone or some such...

I can agree with that. But remember, they are trolls, and trolls from Arkansas to boot, so the do have a very limited vocabulary !

[Lurker]

Stupid double post makes me look like the Okie hick I am when I'm making fun of someone from Arkansas ....

[Treebore]

When someone in CnC is knocked PRONE we assume that means down "lying flat, especially face downward" per an on line dictionary. Going to Arduin's source I think and going to the second definition "astonish or shock (someone) so that they are temporarily unable to react" I would say is where our CnC use of the word comes in simply because the penalty is -2 of stunned and -5 for prone or blind (similar to thief bonus for back or sneak attacks).

I like one game term to mean the same basic thing. Personally I'm going to rule that stunned is unable to attack or move but can defend themselves with a -2 to AC penalty due to affects of the stun. This would be the same no matter how you get stunned... the monk's stun lasts d4 rounds and if by other method (spells noted above) same affect, same AC penalty just the duration is per the spell (normally one round I think).

"Doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.. well unless you're dealing with a Microsoft product." Employing that cynical thought, I want the word to mean the same thing in general.

Great discussion...

In the Monk description you are stunned AND unable to act for 1D4 rounds. I think the Trolls may have separated those two for a reason, which is why I do it as I explained above.