Attribute Rolling

[Daniel]

Question: what is the real impact of changing the roll method?

I have seen several methods and am curious, are they really that different?

3d6 Assign them as the roll SDCIWC
3d6 - Assign as you desire
4d6 drop lowest
3d6 - Reroll 1s
Just use an matrix (example: 5th D&D offers - 15,14,13,12,10,8)
2d6+5
Point Purchase Systems

All of these work, but in the end does it really matter what system was used?

I realize the averages will not be the exact for each system, but I have seen people roll 3d6 and not get below a 14 (rare I admit, but it has happened) and I have seen folks use the 2d6+5 system and end up with a 7, 8, 9, 11, 11, 14 so it makes me wonder if all these systems are really worth the effort.

Thoughts? Favorites?

[Arduin]

All of these work, but in the end does it really matter what system was used?

I realize the averages will not be the exact for each system, but I have seen people roll 3d6 and not get below a 14

It is ALL about averages and the attribute table (CKG has alternate tables) used.


p.s. anyone getting not below 14 (on average, or even twice in a year) using 3d6, is cheating.

[Litzen Tallister]

Do they matter dramatically? Probably not as one can tell great stories and play great characters no matter what the stats come out like. I think one of the things that does make a relatively major change is the ability to determine where stats go vs. any sort of random distribution. With stat assignment, one can pick the class in advance (good for those that come up with concept first). Random assignment means the character you create is determined by the dice, which I think can lead to some new gaming experiences, but might result in characters being less desirable if they come up stat-best for a class not of ones liking.

My personal preference is 3d6, assigned where desired. But that preference isn't head and shoulders above the other options.

[Daniel]

It is ALL about averages and the attribute table (CKG has alternate tables) used.

Per your advice, I am holding back from the CKG for now. Looking forward to picking it up once the new one is out.

p.s. anyone getting not below 14 (on average, or even twice in a year) using 3d6, is cheating.

True. I was slightly exaggerating. I think I have seen it twice in 20+ years. So like I said Rare. My point being less about the number and more about the question.

[ssfsx17]

In randomness, there is inequality. In inequality, there are players hating each other and feeling like the whole world is out to get them.

I'm fine with the various random methods, provided that the players are cool with each other. Special preference for 2d6+6, so that I don't have to pull punches. Otherwise, a static array will be best for public games.

[Treebore]

Question: what is the real impact of changing the roll method?

I have seen several methods and am curious, are they really that different?

3d6 Assign them as the roll SDCIWC
3d6 - Assign as you desire
4d6 drop lowest
3d6 - Reroll 1s
Just use an matrix (example: 5th D&D offers - 15,14,13,12,10,8)
2d6+5
Point Purchase Systems

All of these work, but in the end does it really matter what system was used?

I realize the averages will not be the exact for each system, but I have seen people roll 3d6 and not get below a 14 (rare I admit, but it has happened) and I have seen folks use the 2d6+5 system and end up with a 7, 8, 9, 11, 11, 14 so it makes me wonder if all these systems are really worth the effort.

Thoughts? Favorites?

I let my players do their attributes however they wish, including just writing them in. I can kill their PC's with ease, regardless.

[Treebore]

Any time you wish to see my House Rules, they are always on the first page of my online game threads. Which is currently here, several posts down from the top:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12477

[Daniel]

I let my players do their attributes however they wish, including just writing them in. I can kill their PC's with ease, regardless.

Great point.

Any time you wish to see my House Rules, they are always on the first page of my online game threads. Which is currently here, several posts down from the top: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12477

Thanks. I will go read them.

EDIT: Read them. I really like the document. Very clear. I can't join your game and say I didn't know. Well done.

[Treebore]

I let my players do their attributes however they wish, including just writing them in. I can kill their PC's with ease, regardless.

Great point.

Any time you wish to see my House Rules, they are always on the first page of my online game threads. Which is currently here, several posts down from the top: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12477

Thanks. I will go read them.

EDIT: Read them. I really like the document. Very clear. I can't join your game and say I didn't know. Well done.

Thanks. Clarity, consistency, and fun are what I strive for.

[Rigon]

My preferred method is 4d6 drop the lowest, roll 7 times drop the lowest, and arrange as desired. I've been doing that since the early 90s.

And having been in Tree's online game since we started 8-ish years ago, I use my method to create scores for his games also. It gives a nice array of scores, with some higher and some lower, but for the most part the low end being in the 9-12 range.

Also Daniel, if you want to see my house rules, they are in my signature. The thread is long and there are things that have changed over time, so some of the conversation is irrelevant now, but the rules are on the first post of the thread.

R-

[Daniel]

Also Daniel, if you want to see my house rules, they are in my signature. The thread is long and there are things that have changed over time, so some of the conversation is irrelevant now, but the rules are on the first post of the thread.

I will check them out as well. Thanks for the heads up.

[serleran]

As the game arbiter, I just tell players to write down stats that they'd like, within the bounds of the rules. After all, if they don't have a PC they enjoy, they won't play as well.

As a player, I roll. Usually 3d6. If others are using something else, so will I.

[Captain_K]

Decide with your players what type of characters you want to play, normal folks (11.5 average), better than normal (13s), heroes (16s), or super heroes (18s). As the CK you will balance and make it challenging for whatever the group is and how you interact your PCs with the other NPCs is also up to you the CK.. so in the end I feel its up to you the CK and how you want to run the game with the PCs input too. If they all want to play better than average I think you got to take that into account..

So roll it anyway you want, try different ways, with different groups or different nights..

In the end, make it fun.

[Daniel]

Decide with your players what type of characters you want to play, normal folks (11.5 average), better than normal (13s), heroes (16s), or super heroes (18s). As the CK you will balance and make it challenging for whatever the group is and how you interact your PCs with the other NPCs is also up to you the CK.. so in the end I feel its up to you the CK and how you want to run the game with the PCs input too. If they all want to play better than average I think you got to take that into account...

You bring up a good point. What ever we do, it needs to be consistent. If the characters are too different it could cause issues for the GM trying to challenge the "party".

[Captain_K]

http://www.brockjones.com/dieroller/dice.htm This site has a dice roller that lists the PBE for each random roll and it lets you quickly roll up stats from any dice rolling method you choose.. lets you quickly see just how crappy the "by the book method" is relative to a "hero" out lay and just how statistically special a "hero" really is... you can pick any level but I like offering the PCs chances to be more or less the same power level.. I do not care if one or two scores are high if they are balanced by some low ones, or all are a bit above average if that is their choice... I know life is not fair, and these types of dice rolling is random and that is the "core" of the game to many, but to me, the core is roll playing and fun for the greater group, the dice are just a means to get random results, the core of the PC that will be the vehicle to fun for the PCs for the night, months, or years should not be "just some damn random roll".

Aside: I like rolling up lists of stats, assigned to the scores, 25 to 35 points and letting them pick a "back up" stat set or two. Each PC does this. Then we agree to a dice rolling method and each person rolls up one PC in front of everyone to see if they can beat the "CK provided" back up scores. Usually only one or two folks can beat their back up but it allows for the chance and all the fun of the roll without "the agony of defeat" . In this way they are not min maxing, its random, but they are selecting from an outlay I've provided, and not wasting gaming time rolling up six PCs to get one "worth" playing relative to the rest of the group. Also I keep the PCs pretty much even. Makes my job faster and more uniform that night and each night after.

[Treebore]

Just give them all 18's. No min maxing, everyones characters are "equal", and as I have mentioned before, still easy to kill.

[Daniel]

Just give them all 18's. No min maxing, everyones characters are "equal", and as I have mentioned before, still easy to kill.

While I would love to try this just once for fun, I find that if my stats are too high it takes away from the game a little. I like to have one or two stats above normal, but they don't need to be a 17 or 18. I will admit I also don't like too many stats below 8 as that also seems to zap the fun, but for a different reason.

[Treebore]

Just give them all 18's. No min maxing, everyones characters are "equal", and as I have mentioned before, still easy to kill.

While I would love to try this just once for fun, I find that if my stats are too high it takes away from the game a little. I like to have one or two stats above normal, but they don't need to be a 17 or 18. I will admit I also don't like too many stats below 8 as that also seems to zap the fun, but for a different reason.

Yeah, my favorite array is 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18.

[Captain_K]

Here is a good average character... nice range of highs and lows, possibly an extreme of highs and lows.. but every hero needs his achilles heel.

[Captain_K]

If you forced SDCIWCh then this would be a great thief or assassin who specializes in poisons...

[Daniel]

Yeah, my favorite array is 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18.

Nice. I have used used 17, 16, 15, 12, 11, 10 a few times myself. Keeps them from being too powerful at the beginning and yet they are very much above average.

[Tadhg]

In the past, I did this for my online games:

4D6 drop lowest (re-roll 1s & 2s)

But, after Kayo's game and all the BtB discussions lately I'm playtesting this:

Roll 3 d6 for attributes.
Re-roll ones when totals are less than 6. If a 3, 1 & 1. Only re-roll one 1 (or 1 one)!
When all rolls are complete, if you do not have a 13 or above - take a 13 instead of your lowest roll!

[Arduin]

You bring up a good point. What ever we do, it needs to be consistent. If the characters are too different it could cause issues for the GM trying to challenge the "party".

I just allow everyone 74 points to arrange as desired. That is the average of 4D6 drop lowest.

[Daniel]

You bring up a good point. What ever we do, it needs to be consistent. If the characters are too different it could cause issues for the GM trying to challenge the "party".

I just allow everyone 74 points to arrange as desired. That is the average of 4D6 drop lowest.

So I could do 15, 15, 12, 12, 10, 10. Not a bad character at all. Very heroic.

[Arduin]

You bring up a good point. What ever we do, it needs to be consistent. If the characters are too different it could cause issues for the GM trying to challenge the "party".

I just allow everyone 74 points to arrange as desired. That is the average of 4D6 drop lowest.

So I could do 15, 15, 12, 12, 10, 10. Not a bad character at all. Very heroic.

Nice without getting "out of hand". The player still has tough choices to make but can make a decent & fun to play PC of any class.

[Daniel]

Nice without getting "out of hand". The player still has tough choices to make but can make a decent & fun to play PC of any class.

That si one of the things I id like about the 3.5/pathfinder point buy system. By giving the player a number of points it allowed me to control the overall "power" but still allow them to select where to spend their points.

But the way you have it, it is just as easy and cleaner too.

[Arduin]

Nice without getting "out of hand". The player still has tough choices to make but can make a decent & fun to play PC of any class.

That si one of the things I id like about the 3.5/pathfinder point buy system. By giving the player a number of points it allowed me to control the overall "power" but still allow them to select where to spend their points.

But the way you have it, it is just as easy and cleaner too.

I was doing it this way before "point buying" was a published thing. I never understood the need for that complexity rather than just giving a proper amount of total points.

[Daniel]

I was doing it this way before "point buying" was a published thing. I never understood the need for that complexity rather than just giving a proper amount of total points.

The point buying system allows you to weigh the values. Thus the shift from say 10 to 12 might only cost 2 points for a two pip clime, but 16 to 18 might cost 7 additional points for a two pip clime. The idea is that in order for me to stay with-in the set value point buy I will either have lots of stats that are average or slightly above average or one real great stat but the rest not so much.

Example: In pathfinder, using the standard 15 point buy you could not even buy an 18 (cost 17 points) without having at least one 8. But you could have 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 for example.

But in trying to weigh the values, they do create a little more complexity.

[lobocastle]

I use the below two methods to generate ability scores. The first method I developed for the Dragons Warriors RPG a great game, but unfortunately not modernized.

Method 1 Role 3d6 and consult chart below:

Roll 3 or 18 = 18
Roll 4 or 17 = 17
Roll 5 or 16 = 16
Roll 6 or 15 = 15
Roll 7 or 14 = 14
Roll 8 or 13 = 13
Roll 9 or 12 = 12
Roll 10 or 11 = 11

Method 2 Role 4d3 + 6

[Tadhg]

I use the below two methods to generate ability scores. The first method I developed for the Dragons Warriors RPG a great game, but unfortunately not modernized.

Method 1 Role 3d6 and consult chart below:

Roll 3 or 18 = 18
Roll 4 or 17 = 17
Roll 5 or 16 = 16
Roll 6 or 15 = 15
Roll 7 or 14 = 14
Roll 8 or 13 = 13
Roll 9 or 12 = 12
Roll 10 or 11 = 11

Method 2 Role 4d3 + 6

Very interesting for the 1st method! Like!

Haven't tried the 2nd method - have to go online.