Wizards/Illusionists as Magic Item Identifiers

[KeyIXTheHermit]

Maybe it's in the rules and I'm overlooking it. Or maybe it got written into a later edition (I'm pretty sure I'm using either first or second edition). Maybe you can help me.

Low level magic-users are pretty useless, as we all know. That's why I've always kept them busy by letting them identify magical items and determining what they do, usually without requiring a spell. (Scrolls may be different, since I can't see how they could know what's on them without a Read Magic).

I have a much lower magic world than the core rules imply, and Wizards are RARE. Illusionists are much more common, but they are still rare. However, because they are more common, it would be helpful if both types could identify magic items.

I can find no rules in the game for it, though. I hope they don't have to use a "detect magic" to determine what an item does; that's too steep a penalty (losing a spell slot to tell the Warrior the sword has a +1 bonus).

Am I overlooking rules? Or are there some in other editions/books? If no to both questions, how do the rest of you handle this?

Thanks!

[pawndream]

You can have characters make a Lore (Intelligence SIEGE check) to determine if they can figure out if an item is magical? This might represent stories, etc. they might have heard/read about different magic items over the years.

You can adjust the CL based on the value of the item. That is one way to handle it. I am sure others will be along to provide other methods.

[Rigon]

There are no specific rules in any C&C book, that I know of, that allows for what you want. However, you could allow the wizard/illusionist to make an Int check after studying the item for several rounds.

R-

PS: Pet peeve of mine: printings, not editions.

R-

[KeyIXTheHermit]

PS: Pet peeve of mine: printings, not editions.

R-

The thing is, my version is quite a bit different from later versions. For example, and one of the most notable, the Barbarian rules are completely different. There have also been a number of other changes that I've learned about since being on here.

The 6th, umm, printing, is massively different from what I own.

I (obviously) don't know what distinguishes a printing from an edition, but I would like to make it clear, we're talking about two very different games, not the same game printed at two different times.

[alcyone]

PS: Pet peeve of mine: printings, not editions.

R-

The thing is, my version is quite a bit different from later versions. For example, and one of the most notable, the Barbarian rules are completely different. There have also been a number of other changes that I've learned about since being on here.

The 6th, umm, printing, is massively different from what I own.

I (obviously) don't know what distinguishes a printing from an edition, but I would like to make it clear, we're talking about two very different games, not the same game printed at two different times.

I am sure you can argue for edition, but the main thing with "printing" is it's the terminology the Trolls use and it's less confusing to use it here too.

Also, look at, say, a 2e (AD&D) character. If you run it with 1e rules, there are things now on the sheet that don't make sense. If you run it in 3e, it's missing a lot. In 4e, it doesn't have any of the powers necessary to play. Sure, you can convert them. But in C&C, your first printing barbarian will follow the same rules in each game; as long as you have the page describing the barbarian, all of the other rules will work as you expect, and nothing in the barbarian description will refer to some mechanic that isn't there. No conversion is necessary, unless for some reason the CK tells you that you must play the new Barbarian, which is really a different class.

[KeyIXTheHermit]

I am sure you can argue for edition, but the main thing with "printing" is it's the terminology the Trolls use and it's less confusing to use it here too.

But in C&C, your first printing barbarian will follow the same rules in each game; as long as you have the page describing the barbarian, all of the other rules will work as you expect, and nothing in the barbarian description will refer to some mechanic that isn't there. No conversion is necessary, unless for some reason the CK tells you that you must play the new Barbarian, which is really a different class.

Wow, learning the terminology will be a hard start... when you said "printing is the terminology the Trolls use" my first thought was that you were calling Rigon a Troll, which on any other board is a bad thing. Well, you were calling him a Troll, but here it's just the name of the people on this board. Muy confusing....

The other thing is, I want to be clear here, because this confuses me greatly. My Barbarian has the following ability list:

Combat Sense
Primal Force
Primal Fury
Primal Might
Primal Will

I don't own later versions, but I looked at one in the store, and the "new way" of doing Barbarians is quite different.

Since I don't have those books, I have no idea what else may or may not be different. To keep things easy to understand, I will keep in mind that it's a printing, not an edition, but for all I know, later books could be different from end to end. The only reason I know about Barbarians is, of course!, because it's my favored class.

Oh, if anyone else sees this, I'm still soliciting replies for the original question! Thanks!

[Captain_K]

Relax, take a deep breath, let it out an smile... its all for fun, its all basically ADD with some changes, but once you have it you have the core game and rules unchanged.. the write up of the barbarian changed but not the core rules which allow you to play the Barbarian, and most other classes are unchanged printing to printing. Like any book "reprint" there should be no significant changes, only type-o fixes... so folks here like to state "printing" to imply core rules have not changed, the game and all the books still work from print to print.. EDITIONS are like the major switch from ADD 1st Ed to 4th Ed.. not really the same game anymore...

That said, Mages need "Read Magic" really to do anything... the assumption could be that Illusionists must do the same... using the same spell with a slight variation in style... or "Read Illusion".... Heck, How does a Cleric read a clerical scroll in a different language from a different culture (Say a Norse Priest of Thor who reads "runes" to cast cure light wounds off a scroll who finds an Egyptian Cure Light Wounds on papyrus from Ra)? Read Foreign Mythoi Magic???

So once you get past this little "oversight", my suggestion would be that the spells identify or detect magic need to be able to be cast by all classes with best results when dealing with their own circle or type of magic. Now, if making them cast these as spells is something you want to change, just add an ability to the classes you want. Ex. Mages and Illusionists can detect magic with a successful INT check, Druids and Clerics with a successful WIS check. Functions just like the 0 level spell (yes this adds the power to Ill and Druid that are not 0 level spells in the book.. but that's your call, I was in an expansive mood just then). You could do the Identify, which is a costly spell a power, but I'd make it harder to do and or more expensive than the 1st lvl mage spell. That said, I'd also make it harder for non-mages to use. Clerics have Augury and Divination...

Any way you do it, finding stuff for low level mages to do is a good idea, I like giving them more spells in memory to chose from and follow their limit of spells per day per the table and I allow those 1.5x spells in memory to be used multiple times if they want. Adds more depth and resources without changing the fundamental spell limits. Plus I allow regaining spells very quickly, just kind of resting the magical mana per say... changing spells still takes rest, books &/or prayer. Just like a fighter does not need to rest all night and limber up before entering his second fight of the day...

[Rigon]

I am sure you can argue for edition, but the main thing with "printing" is it's the terminology the Trolls use and it's less confusing to use it here too.

But in C&C, your first printing barbarian will follow the same rules in each game; as long as you have the page describing the barbarian, all of the other rules will work as you expect, and nothing in the barbarian description will refer to some mechanic that isn't there. No conversion is necessary, unless for some reason the CK tells you that you must play the new Barbarian, which is really a different class.

Wow, learning the terminology will be a hard start... when you said "printing is the terminology the Trolls use" my first thought was that you were calling Rigon a Troll, which on any other board is a bad thing. Well, you were calling him a Troll, but here it's just the name of the people on this board. Muy confusing....

He wasn't calling me a troll, he was refering to the Troll Lords. . And it's really not a huge deal, like I said, it's a pet peeve.

The other thing is, I want to be clear here, because this confuses me greatly. My Barbarian has the following ability list:

Combat Sense
Primal Force
Primal Fury
Primal Might
Primal Will

I don't own later versions, but I looked at one in the store, and the "new way" of doing Barbarians is quite different.

Since I don't have those books, I have no idea what else may or may not be different. To keep things easy to understand, I will keep in mind that it's a printing, not an edition, but for all I know, later books could be different from end to end. The only reason I know about Barbarians is, of course!, because it's my favored class.

There is a change to the barbarian and some clearifications to the illusionist and the flavor of the monk is less oriental and more brawler now, but oher than those changes, the game mechanics has not changed. You can use a 1st print to play with a group using a 6th print. Heck, in my online game, we are using printings from 3rd to 6th with no problems. The newest printing does, however, have the most clarifications in it.

Oh, if anyone else sees this, I'm still soliciting replies for the original question! Thanks!

I did give a suggestion in my post. Like I said above, you could ave them study the magic item for several rounds/hours/days and then make a SIEGE check against Int to determine what the magical effects if the item are.

R-

[Aramis]

I am sure you can argue for edition, but the main thing with "printing" is it's the terminology the Trolls use and it's less confusing to use it here too.

But in C&C, your first printing barbarian will follow the same rules in each game; as long as you have the page describing the barbarian, all of the other rules will work as you expect, and nothing in the barbarian description will refer to some mechanic that isn't there. No conversion is necessary, unless for some reason the CK tells you that you must play the new Barbarian, which is really a different class.

Wow, learning the terminology will be a hard start... when you said "printing is the terminology the Trolls use" my first thought was that you were calling Rigon a Troll, which on any other board is a bad thing. Well, you were calling him a Troll, but here it's just the name of the people on this board. Muy confusing....

He wasn't calling me a troll, he was refering to the Troll Lords. .

R-

First, Aergraith should know Rigon is not a troll. He's more of a cross between a hello kitty doll and a grizzly bear.

Second, there used to be a pdf of the changes to the classes for earlier edition folks. Not sure where that is.

Third, and to the original question, the spell for identifying magic items is, conveniently enough, called identify and is a wizard only 1st level spell. You could allow illusionists access to that spell, or allow both to use it as a 0 level cantrip if you want it more common, or convert it into a Lore skill check as mentioned above. If you did so, it would probably be a good idea to let the bard have a roll too

However, the quote that "Low level magic-users are pretty useless, as we all know" cannot be allowed to stand, sir! Pull up a stool and I'll tell you a tale that will curl your toes! Why yes, I wouldn't say no to an ale. Telling stories is thirsty work.

I was but a mere grunt fresh out of the academy when a wee apprentice nearly took out my entire platoon with a well timed sleep spell. Just a slip of a lass she was. A few of us were out of the area of effect and stormed towards the blighter with murderous intent only for her to cast another sleep spell and take out the other half of the patrol. I was only able to survive because she cast a charm person on me and had me carry her heavy books back to her teacher's tower. Damn and blast those wizards!

[Treebore]

Yep, while the classes have been rewritten, the rules from the first printing are the same as what is in the 6th printing, except, of course, for Grappling. I much prefer the newest version of those. I think the rewrite for Grappling was done in the 4th printing onward. Still, it doesn't matter which printing you use, as long as you establish from the start which version your using for the campaign.

[KeyIXTheHermit]

Third, and to the original question, the spell for identifying magic items is, conveniently enough, called identify and is a wizard only 1st level spell. You could allow illusionists access to that spell, or allow both to use it as a 0 level cantrip if you want it more common, or convert it into a Lore skill check as mentioned above. If you did so, it would probably be a good idea to let the bard have a roll too

Ah, so that's where it is! I looked right over it.

Truth to tell, we're playing C&C in the world of Mavel-Comics-Conan-meets -Thundarr-The-Barbarian setting. Everything that feels Arthurian has been stripped out, and that means a lot of classes are disallowed (and may not even exist). Wizards and Illusionists are evil (it's required to have access to the power). Illusionists, called Mystics in this world, are the most common type of magic-user: they use potions and lotus plants and hypnotism, as well as mind powers they learned in their studies and powers from pacts with demons.

The more powerful version, the Sorcerer/Sorceress, is exceedingly rare. It's both nature and nuture: it's an inborn calling that only some respond to. (The "Good" magic works the same way: The Priestess stays in the temples and rarely adventures, but you can find them. But the Animist lives in the wild and has much of the same power, but can't restore life.)

Anyway, yeah, in this world, the Sorcerer is almost God-Like in power. She can even cast blasts of energy from her fingertips! That's amazing and terrifying in this world. The Mystic is the most common magic-user that the PC's will come into contact with. If they've met a Sorceress, they're already dead.

So, as you can see, this world is very low magic. A +1 weapon is an amazing find. And few people would consider going to a Mystic to ask questions! He might sacrifice first and ask questions later!

So yeah, this is clearly going to take some serious changes in my world.

[ssfsx17]

For the whole printing versus edition business:

C&C printings, and the differences between them, are much closer to the true definition of an "edition". The books are at least 75% the same between each edition.

The amount of stuff changed between AD&D editions was so drastic that it basically broke the definition of "edition" and reappropriated the word to mean any kind of overhaul of an RPG.

Much like how "literally" now means "figuratively" these days.