Is C&C a d20 game?

[mmbutter]

GDW's "house system" - which became the standard rules for later editions of Twilight 2000 and all of Traveller: The New Era - was called "D20" back in the late 80's.

[Arduin]

GDW's "house system" - which became the standard rules for later editions of Twilight 2000 and all of Traveller: The New Era - was called "D20" back in the late 80's.

Really? I don't remember my TNE stuff being called D20...

[mmbutter]

Digging just one reference out of internet history: https://www.mail-archive.com/ogf-l@open ... 07710.html (the system used in TNE was the same system as used in TW:2000 v2+ and Dark Conspiracy.)

There are many more. Frank Chadwick has personally used that term for his mechanics in my presence (we had dinner a few years ago...)

[Arduin]

Digging just one reference out of internet history: ...

I meant in my printed game rules. NOT somewhere on the interwebtubes. I don't remember that designation in the printed rules. Not that it wasn't there as I didn't play that version for long.

[mmbutter]

Hmmm, I don't remember ever saying that was printed in the rules (though the term was used in the TW:2000 rules, IIRC, which was the same mechanics). I said it was "called" the D20 system back in the day. To differentiate it from the original TW:2000 rules which were D10 based.

[Captain_K]

Wow, all this over a d20... if the game uses lots of d20s isn't it a d20 game?

I think of CnC as ADD revised/updated/improved with all the other DnD variants being the same thing but from another's point of view...

Are not all the spawn of Gygax? The true source of this stuff???

[mmbutter]

Well, the "house rules" mechanics used in TNE, TW:2000, Dark Conspiracy, etc. for skill checks were all "roll D20, add or subtract some modifiers, see if you beat a target number" - sound familiar?

[Arduin]

Hmmm, I don't remember ever saying that was printed in the rules

Oh. I thought you meant that TNE material listed the game mechanic as D20. Or, official game material listed as such. My misunderstanding.

[mmbutter]

Oh. I thought you meant that TNE material listed the game mechanic as D20. Or, official game material listed as such. My misunderstanding.

No, at the time most publishers didn't give their rules fancy names. It was just "Traveller Rules" or "ASL Rules" or "D&D Rules" or whatever. The rules were just referred to internally as "these rules".

[Arduin]

Oh. I thought you meant that TNE material listed the game mechanic as D20. Or, official game material listed as such. My misunderstanding.

No, at the time most publishers didn't give their rules fancy names. It was just "Traveller Rules" or "ASL Rules" or "D&D Rules" or whatever.

Yep indeed, that's why I replied as I did.

[Snoring Rock]

D20 is the game system rules (3.x to be specific). WotC completely re-thought the rules and carefully codified what they could salvage from earlier rules and reworked the rest. They based most resolution on d20 and hence the term "D20". D20 is also referred to as the D20 SRD (system rules document) which is the base rules for 3.x, less all the fluff. OGL is the Open Game License which made it possible for all of the 3rd party publishers to do their thing without opening offices at WotC just to answer calls on publishers wishing to publish attached material.

The OGL specifically gives access to D20 rules "nomenclature", less the character creation stuff, and restricts certain privately held things like "Mind Flayer" and "Beholder" to WotC use only. There is some TSR created stuff in there that rolls over to 3.x that is also opened up. Over the years, they were invented together; D20 and OGL have come to be used interchangeably. It is technically incorrect, but I think everyone knows what you are saying when you do. D20 are rules, OGL is permission and limitations on use of the terms and other related copyrighted "words". You cannot copyright game rules.

So when I say D20 I mean D&D 3.x rules system, for example using d20 to resolve pick pocket success or failure using a d20 instead of the old style percentage. So many of the old resolutions wend to the d20 like open doors (d6), thieves abilities (d100), lift gate (d100), etc. All d20 now. C&C uses d20. D20.

Is C&C a "D20" game? Technically; no. The D20 logo is revoked. Is it heavily influenced by D20? Oh hell YES! Look at the use of the d20 in the rules. No different than 3.x. Is C&C OGL? If it uses D&D terms or character creation, then yes, it is OGL. You will find the OGL in every book published by TLG. It is in the back.

Is C&C a stand alone game? Absolutely. The siege engine sets it apart. Legally it will always rely on the OGL in order to exist as it does. But C&C has enough of its own life that it stand alone. Crusade on!

[KeyIXTheHermit]

Thank you for your clarification and explanation, Snoring Rock. Everything you posted sounds spot on, as well as written in a way that was easily understood.

Others may wish to carry on the discussion, but I feel the question has been answered thoroughly and completely.