Have you ever given a dragon as treasure or a magical item?

[Tadhg]

Well, I did in my game last Sunday.

This!



Blunderbuss in handgun form!

I've never had firearms in my games, but had to do it when I saw this art piece - as I was searching for D&D artwork on goog images.

The cool thing (at least in my mind) was the patron silver dragon bestowing this magic item to the half-orc fighter in the party. Lord Argenteus has a soft spot for these poor half creatures rejected by orcs and humans.

So, I'm just wondering how many of y'all have allowed an occasional firearm into your fantasy C&C world?

[Treebore]

A couple of times. So its been few and far between.

[Lurker]

Nice artwork, you are right, something like that just calls to be a special weapon given to a player !

As for guns in games.... Not surprising with my like of 'swashbuckler' characters/settings (Including 2e's 'Mighty Fortress' and the d20 adaptation of 7th sea) that I've always wanted to. However, back in the day when I ran games no one ever wanted that style of setting so never got to add them.

What is odd, if I ever put together my home brew world, I'm not sure which way I'd go ... lower magic 'Viking/Norman knight' flavor of setting or high magic 'Princess Bride/Star Dust' . If the former no to fire arms, if the latter it would be required.

I know one issue with fire arms is the damage they can cause with ease of use. How are you handling it?

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

Ooh, that looks cool. We’re currently playing in a fantasy version of Renaissance Venice, and there are firearms here and there. So far, they got one as treasure and never really cared about it. I think I’ll try an enchanted one and see what happens.

[serleran]

Of course. Usually from a dwarf or gnome after an epic victory against some ancient foe.

And, I've given baby dragons, too.... the kind that come from eggs and breathe magic death.

[Captain_K]

A "ray gun" once. Limted charges, then just so much useless tech... really not much different than a magic item. Was not a wand of "automatic" magic missles once portraid as a machine gun? I think the old DMG had suggested rules for all such things..

[Penny-Whistle]

It really is a beautiful object. Looks magical and is perfect for your setting.

[Go0gleplex]

Once. A pseudo dragon figurine of precious metal and jade. It detected as magic but they couldn't figure out how to work it. The mage-thief got it by default and carried it around for a while. The mystery deepened when all of his food started disappearing on the new moon. The party set a trap the next full moon and caught the lil dragon in the middle of his pantry raid. They bribed him for his command word which was the only way to get it as the 'trick' to figuring out the item. The food raids didn't stop with that though. Was a good running gag for a long while.

[JohnD]

Had a pseudo dragon become a wizard's familiar once.

[Captain_K]

I got a cool one of a dagger mixed with a gun.. got to down load from the camera and upload here... from a small pub outside Bunratty Castle!

[Omote]

Last Thursday, for defeating a dragon that was allied with a vrock demon, upon the defeat of that dragon the party was awarded a vrock as loot. The vrock was like the dragon's familiar, and is beat-down and obedient. Now, the CK gave our party the "control" of the demon. It's not exactly a dragon, but pretty close. I'm not sure what to think yet... And what do we DO with it?

~O

[AndyMac]

Kill that Vrock!

-Bennett the Paladin

Set it loose on the Paladin!

-Darko the Rogue

[Buttmonkey]

Last Thursday, for defeating a dragon that was allied with a vrock demon, upon the defeat of that dragon the party was awarded a vrock as loot. The vrock was like the dragon's familiar, and is beat-down and obedient. Now, the CK gave our party the "control" of the demon. It's not exactly a dragon, but pretty close. I'm not sure what to think yet... And what do we DO with it?

~O

That is a cool plot development. At times like this, I am reminded what is best in life: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women. Take your vrock and make it so!

[Penny-Whistle]

Last Thursday, for defeating a dragon that was allied with a vrock demon, upon the defeat of that dragon the party was awarded a vrock as loot. The vrock was like the dragon's familiar, and is beat-down and obedient. Now, the CK gave our party the "control" of the demon. It's not exactly a dragon, but pretty close. I'm not sure what to think yet... And what do we DO with it?

~O

That is a cool plot development. At times like this, I am reminded what is best in life: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women. Take your vrock and make it so!

Hearing women cry is one of the best things in life?

[Buttmonkey]

Last Thursday, for defeating a dragon that was allied with a vrock demon, upon the defeat of that dragon the party was awarded a vrock as loot. The vrock was like the dragon's familiar, and is beat-down and obedient. Now, the CK gave our party the "control" of the demon. It's not exactly a dragon, but pretty close. I'm not sure what to think yet... And what do we DO with it?

~O

That is a cool plot development. At times like this, I am reminded what is best in life: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women. Take your vrock and make it so!

Hearing women cry is one of the best things in life?

It's a line from the movie "Conan the Barbarian". Someone asks what is best in life and another guy talks about riding a horse and hunting with a hawk or something. The questioner goes all McLaughlin Group and yells, "Wrong!" He then asks Conan what is best in life and Conan utters the immortal line about crushing your enemies, etc. It's one of the greatest nerd quotes of all time.

[Penny-Whistle]

Hearing women cry is one of the best things in life?[/quote]
It's a line from the movie "Conan the Barbarian". Someone asks what is best in life and another guy talks about riding a horse and hunting with a hawk or something. The questioner goes all McLaughlin Group and yells, "Wrong!" He then asks Conan what is best in life and Conan utters the immortal line about crushing your enemies, etc. It's one of the greatest nerd quotes of all time.[/quote]

I am aware of the source. It just seems so embarrassingly dated. I can think of so many other things that are truly great in life that a real barbarian would appreciate: the transient beauty of fireflies, the glory of feeling healthy, the joy of doing great things, a perfectly crafted sword ... etc ... for pretty much forever. Only a pathetic bully would think hearing women cry should be in the top three. Like does he also like to snatch food away from starving children? When he sees a dog does he get a secret thrill in kicking it? Conan in 2015 just sounds a bit sad.

[Buttmonkey]

I can think of so many other things that are truly great in life that a real barbarian would appreciate: the transient beauty of fireflies

That is just awesome!

In defense of Conan (movie version), he did seem to become less cruel and bloodthirsty after being freed and seeing some more of the world. As for me, if I'm dated, so be it. I'm just having fun. I do not personally believe ruining the lives of women and hearing their lamentation is the best thing in life. But it's fun to quote Conan on a fantasy RPG forum!

[Penny-Whistle]

I can think of so many other things that are truly great in life that a real barbarian would appreciate: the transient beauty of fireflies

That is just awesome!

In defense of Conan (movie version), he did seem to become less cruel and bloodthirsty after being freed and seeing some more of the world. As for me, if I'm dated, so be it. I'm just having fun. I do not personally believe ruining the lives of women and hearing their lamentation is the best thing in life. But it's fun to quote Conan on a fantasy RPG forum!

Heh. It has just been so long since I heard that quote that hearing it today it rang a little bit weird and a bit funny.
I had this image pop into my mind of Conan as the lunchroom bully who later goes home to kick his puppy.

(And I would be relieved to hear you don't believe in ruining the lives of women except at no time did I think you did). =)

[Penny-Whistle]

And yeah: fireflies!

A real barbarian (a person who was happily not born into civilization) said on his deathbed:

What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset.
~ Crowfoot, Blackfoot warrior

[Arduin]

I am aware of the source. It just seems so embarrassingly dated.

That's because it IS dated. It doesn't reflect present culture but, barbaric culture from the past. You might want to read accounts of the Norse (Barbarians) and how they ravaged European "civilization" during the height of their exploits... You expect trans-gendered Barbarians eating tofu sandwiches in fantasy literature because of the times WE live in?

[Penny-Whistle]

I am aware of the source. It just seems so embarrassingly dated.

That's because it IS dated. It doesn't reflect present culture but, barbaric culture from the past. You might want to read accounts of the Norse (Barbarians) and how they ravaged European "civilization" during the height of their exploits... You expect trans-gendered Barbarians eating tofu sandwiches in fantasy literature because of the times WE live in?

Crowfoot never ate tofu but if he did I would continue to respect him. For me, the problem with Howard's writings is that his ideas and philosophy date back directly to the Jim Crow era -- a truly disgraceful culture. I live in Texas where those ghosts still lurk. Hatred of anyone outside his own group seems to leak through almost everything he wrote. I don't know if he was pandering to what he thought his audience wanted or if these things were personally important; either way, while that kind of thing may still work for some people I don't like it. I can read his stuff as an historical curiosity but it doesn't inspire my gaming or amuse me.

I do have to add for the record: that often-quoted passage does not truly reflect most barbarian cultures. It sounds more like something a colonial agent might say as he slashed his way through the Heart of Darkness. It certainly nails the modern global corporate ethos. While one can find examples of raider-like cultures by far most of the cultures that might be called uncivilized were (and in some cases still are) egalitarian. Jared Diamond's well meaning arguments and poor scholarship notwithstanding.

I notice a lot of your sentences used the word 'you' even though you don't know me. Perhaps if you expressed your opinion rather than guessing mine the tone of your forum post would have sounded less provocative -- unless of course that was your aim. If so, carry on.

[Arduin]

For me, the problem with Howard's writings is that his ideas and philosophy date back directly to the Jim Crow era

Actually, his fantasy writings have nothing to do with that era. His writings have to do with a person who was a Barbarian in a world modeled after ancient & early medieval times. "Jim Crow" is about segregation laws passed after Reconstruction. His Conan writing have NO such flavor.

As far has quotes. Study the writings of those who witnessed the Norse Barbarians and what they were like. There are MANY such writings from primary sources to study.

[Penny-Whistle]

For me, the problem with Howard's writings is that his ideas and philosophy date back directly to the Jim Crow era

Actually, his fantasy writings have nothing to do with that era. His writings have to do with a person who was a Barbarian in a world modeled after ancient & early medieval times. "Jim Crow" is about segregation laws passed after Reconstruction. His Conan writing have NO such flavor.

And Jim Crow was based on a belief in white supremacy. His essay The Hyborian Age seems to have been his world-building exercise. Putting his stories in the context of that world suggests race was a key element. If you don't agree then I guess we simply disagree.

But, sentences like "Only in the province of Gunderband, where the people keep no slaves, is the pure Hyborian stock found unblemished" make his position crystal clear to me and frankly sounds a bit chilling given world events in the 20th century. I can't help but notice that he describes the Shemites as the ancestors of today's Arabs and Jews yet throughout his stories the Shemites are relentlessly shown as greedy treacherous liars. It is pulp fiction but it perpetuates a nasty stereotype. Howard even seems to vaguely champion the idea of segregation in "Shadows In Zamboula." Another example of racial stereotyping can be found in "Jewels of Gwahlur" where the mixed race people (who happen to worship white people -- ew) are shown as barely more intelligent than root vegetables.

As for sexism. One of his stories "The Frost Giant's Daughter" is about his attempt to rape a woman. Examples of sexism are legion but one fact may underline it all. In nearly all his stories the bad ass Conan wanders around the world but nearly always he has to have a pet woman accompany him. Her inclusion seems to be mainly to give an excuse for silly cover art but as a character these virtually identical women really only play a few roles: victim or a weird pet dog that he can sex with. In Howard's world women aren't really people.

Yet, Howard's writing endures. Clearly some people are entertained and even inspired by it. I do like how Conan is an early example of an anarchist. I like his stance on freedom and the criticism that civilization might not be all that great. Those things speak to me. I just don't think they are enough to erase the ugly bits. So yeah. For me, the Conan world doesn't provide much to admire.

[Arduin]

And Jim Crow was based on a belief in white supremacy. His essay The Hyborian Age seems to have been his world-building exercise. Putting his stories in the context of that world suggests race was a key element. If you don't agree then I guess we simply disagree.

You believe that Howard was a White supremacist?




He actually considered himself to be a Celt and a minority in the White man's world.

[Penny-Whistle]

When I was in high school, the person who invited me to read Howard's works was a self described white supremacist. He and his friends all seemed to think he expressed their world view. But, you don't have to take my word for it. Howard can speak for himself:

In a letter to H. P. Lovecraft, Howard talks about a rancher who was investigated for the murder of a Mexican. "just why so much trouble was taken about a Mexican I cannot understand."

In reference to a trial in Honolulu where native Hawaiians were accused of rape, Howard wrote, "I know what would have happened to them in Texas. I don't know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he's roasting, but I'm willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman."

"I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town. Chances are they might tar and feather him."

"Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know. Those people come from a different line. They have different blood - "

And it isn't hard to imagine that the narrator who says, "Born and raised in Arizona of good Virginia fighting stock, I held "niggers" in contempt and was a strong believer in Nordic and especially Celtic superiority," is expressing Howard's personal point of view.

http://www.rehupa.com/OLDWEB/updates/romeo_southern.htm

(I forgot to mention earlier: If Crowfoot or anyone else decided to describe themselves as trangendered that wouldn't change my opinion of them as a person or their achievements. You kind of said that like it was a bad thing.)

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

I adore R.E. Howard’s writings. Same goes for the Conan movies. R.E. Howard, unlike Lovecraft, had some positive characters of color. But reading his contemporary horror stories, yeesh. Black Canaan is pretty much about white people killing African-Americans.

[Arduin]

I adore R.E. Howard’s writings. Same goes for the Conan movies. R.E. Howard, unlike Lovecraft, had some positive characters of color. But reading his contemporary horror stories, yeesh. Black Canaan is pretty much about white people killing African-Americans.

Yep, and in Conan the Conqueror he had Conan freeing black slaves and helping them to then kill white people.