One player on why he doesn't want to give C&C a try...

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:41 am

I thought you guys would find this interesting ...

I tried to pitch C&C to a guy who claims to be into story, but he refused to try C&C.

"I'm all into roleplaying at the table," he said. "But the roleplaying stops when I leave the table. The 'stats' go with me throughout the week."

I was tired. It was only now as I type, I figured out my answer, "you mean you couldn't do a character journal? Or figure out what the next step in your plot should be?"

Sort of a delayed "Liar, liar! ..." reaction

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:56 am

Say what you will but I say "gag me with a pitchfork." What a load of crap. Everybody has the games that they like, but I find it reprehensible that any true gamer would refuse to try a system, even if only once.

Call it a late evening and I'm working on coming down from many, many fine beverages, but the statement from that guy seems so smarmy, and/or egotistical that I wish him to trip and skin his damn knee. POS.
....................................................Omote

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DaveyB · Post by **DaveyB** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:52 am

Quote:
"I'm all into roleplaying at the table," he said. "But the roleplaying stops when I leave the table. The 'stats' go with me throughout the week."

Not sure I even understand what he means by that..? The stats go with me throughout the week? I would hope the roleplaying stops when he leaves the table. Is he trying to say he's too cool to try C&C, or that C&C is too hardcore an RPG for him, and that he doesn't want to be seen as a geek?? Sounds like you have a closet gamer on your hands. I don't get it...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:57 am

I have seen his type of 3E player before. He spends all week doing different builds to see what "optimum" build he wants to work towards with his character in the game.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:53 am

When 3e came out, there were plenty of 2nd Ed. AD&Ders who balked at 3e and refused to even try it. I've found some players of 3e who act that way towards C&C now. Also, many of them say something to the effect of, "I've spent WAY too much money on 3.x to switch to another game." Very sad if you ask me.

The One and All · Post by **The One and All** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:23 am

Treebore is right... I have a player just like that.

"I like to feel immerse in a different world when I play D&D.. No no.. NO need for roleplaying.. just knowing that im in that world is good enough."

Sadly, he says the same thing when he plays MMO.

But then again, that is comming from a guy that says :

"I don't read books, I think it's a waste of time.. especially when I can watch it on screen (movies)"

RPGmonk · Post by **RPGmonk** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:11 pm

Treebore wrote:
I have seen his type of 3E player before. He spends all week doing different builds to see what "optimum" build he wants to work towards with his character in the game.

AAArrrggh! I had one player that would just ruin a campaign where I would set the bar a little lower to ease in new players, and he would come out with this terminator character tweaked to the max via the rules. Hack and slash all the way.

I remember one of the old campaigns I was in, one player would have at least three characters in front of him, and would proceed with a "This guy does this, now this guy does this" playing style. No rpging, just numbers and paper.

peace

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Dristram wrote:
When 3e came out, there were plenty of 2nd Ed. AD&Ders who balked at 3e and refused to even try it. I've found some players of 3e who act that way towards C&C now. Also, many of them say something to the effect of, "I've spent WAY too much money on 3.x to switch to another game." Very sad if you ask me.

Around here, we call that the 40K effect. LOL!

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:50 pm

Quote:
AAArrrggh! I had one player that would just ruin a campaign where I would set the bar a little lower to ease in new players, and he would come out with this terminator character tweaked to the max via the rules. Hack and slash all the way.

That is what I dislike about 3.e the most. No depth to the character, just a stack of numbers...

Quote:
"I don't read books, I think it's a waste of time.. especially when I can watch it on screen (movies)"

I never thought a gamer would think that. A book gets the mental jucies flowing, a movie is an excuse to eat popcorn & snugle with the wife ...

& I can't even dream of saying I'd never give any system a try. It might not be my cup of tea, but even giving a guy a chance to run a game that you won't be into will help you get him to try your game down the road.
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:56 am

anglefish wrote:
Around here, we call that the 40K effect. LOL!

Dude! I totally know what you're talking about!

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:17 am

anglefish wrote:
..."I'm all into roleplaying at the table," he said. "But the roleplaying stops when I leave the table. The 'stats' go with me throughout the week."...

Uh, um, what? I can't quite parse this sentence into anything that makes sense. Can someone elucidate?
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ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:18 pm

You are probably better off without the said player. I had to deal with odd folks at the gaming table occasionally. From experience, if they react that way before even trying, they will probably stay that way while playing.

ZW.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:31 pm

Treebore wrote:
I have seen his type of 3E player before. He spends all week doing different builds to see what "optimum" build he wants to work towards with his character in the game.

I had a player like this as well, he was all about maxing out his character with the best chain of feats, not that he was a bad player, but he really liked the character building aspects of 3E.
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:17 pm

Catweazle wrote:
Uh, um, what? I can't quite parse this sentence into anything that makes sense. Can someone elucidate?

"I like to roleplay. But once the game session is over, I want to be able to look at my character's statistics and plan and plot the development of the character over the next X levels."

3E made character advancement a mini-game in and of itself (like Traveller made character generation a game). Many players find it fun to tweak character builds. They can take their "stats" out of the game and try to optimize their character.

It's actually a neat function of 3E, in my opinion... the problem is that it makes the game very rules-heavy in play. I used to love building out characters in 3E... hated playing them, though.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:41 pm

cheeplives wrote:
I used to love building out characters in 3E...

I used to enjoy doing the same thing in a game called Champions or Fantasy Hero. Fortunately I soon found it boring.
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:27 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I used to enjoy doing the same thing in a game called Champions or Fantasy Hero. Fortunately I soon found it boring.

I know some people who do spend WEEKS fiddiling with Hero stats to make the most optiomial Hero character.

Some of my personal problem is that my favorite games store is too far a detour from my homebound commute and Saturdays has the regular crowd of guys who pretty much do "3.5 DnD character builds" night.

In essence the point of the game is to see how ridiculous the builds and combos can be (the star player has a werewolf/gargolye/Barbarian) and how the DM can one-up the entire table with his combats. The roleplaying is pretty much silly and beer and pretzels -- not a thing wrong with that.

My new tactic is to "shop" around and meet some new people as compared to my old stomping grounds.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:10 pm

Gideon,

I agree about Champions. I used to love the game, but as its gotten older (and larger, and crunchier, and...) I've given up on it. Which actually inspired me to write that Siege Engine Superhero RPG TLG will be publishing in the fall. It had originally been just for personal use, then maybe a feature article in Crusader, and has finally ended up a box set. The "rules" will only be 30-odd pages and the rest a Villan Gallery and setting book.

But being based on C&C you don't have hardly any "Min/Max" and as usual the CK can outlaw any sillyness. Of course, that's true in any game but its repeated. Often. Incessantly. Hell, if you cut out all the "At the CK's option" or "CK discretion" it might cut about 5 pages from the rules!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:40 pm

sieg wrote:
Gideon,

I agree about Champions. I used to love the game, but as its gotten older (and larger, and crunchier, and...) I've given up on it.

I've got the early version of Champions. The one what was out before that Fuzion business hit it. Not sure what edition it is, but it works for me so I saw no reason to change. I do have several of the 'ultimate' books though. Martial artist, Supermage, Mentalist ect ect.
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:14 am

funny topic. on another thread on another forum there was a GM who was discussing how he liked certain levels of crunch in his games, because for him, it constitues a form of solo-play.

Interesting notion, that the things we hate most about 3rd edition, for some, it enables the game to be 'played' by ones self waiting for his next game night.

crunch as solo-play

hmmm..

cheers,

J.

Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:29 am

jman5000 wrote:
Interesting notion, that the things we hate most about 3rd edition, for some, it enables the game to be 'played' by ones self waiting for his next game night.

crunch as solo-play

hmmm..

Hm. I can definitely understand the allure. Deciding which feat to take, which attribute to raise, or which class to gain your next level in provides a lot of interesting choices and has the benefit of being immediately and tangibly satisfying.

I spent several games developing my characters' histories and motivations, and making plans with some other players regarding some plots we'd like to pursue, only to have it amount to a lot of nothing when the GM decided they had "plans" for the game. But if you take a feat that lets you invoke the power of your goddess to call down a lightning bolt a few times a day, well, you can use that now and again.

Which is a big reason why I became a GM. I enjoy creating a world and its inhabitants (or familiarizing myself with a pre-made setting); things like story I leave up to the players to figure out. I'm just there to make things squeak when they decide to poke them.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:27 pm

Quote:
Which is a big reason why I became a GM. I enjoy creating a world and its inhabitants (or familiarizing myself with a pre-made setting); things like story I leave up to the players to figure out. I'm just there to make things squeak when they decide to poke them.

I can't agree more. It is one thing to have a game planned & funnel the group into it, it is even better if you have 4 or 5 things on the warmers & let the party take their own path. They will enjoy it more & actually have a reasion to go around "poking" things IMHO...
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:03 pm

Lurker wrote:
It is one thing to have a game planned & funnel the group into it, it is even better if you have 4 or 5 things on the warmers & let the party take their own path. They will enjoy it more & actually have a reasion to go around "poking" things IMHO...

That is a good statement, and exactly how I CK my games. The more knowledge a CK has about the world or area that the games takes place in, the more you'll have to imporvise on when the players go about and "explore." I love setting an adventure off on a path and then include 4-5 other paths that the party can choose from. This makes the players feel like they are directing their own adventures and not just being railroaded into a particular story. A good CK can always make these particular 4-5 extra paths then come back to the core story that was developed.

.............................................Omote

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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:06 pm

Regarding Champions...

Pete, you likely have the fourth edition.

I have the fourth and fifth editions. I'm tempted to offer up the 5th edition book to anyone that wants it in trade for a copy of the Hero System Sidekick book, which distilled the Hero System rules into a manageable 128 pages, versus the 572 that make up Hero ReFRED.

Supposedly the sidekick took out some of the lesser used options while keeping the system usable. But other than eBay and Hero Games*, I've not found anyone offering the accursed thing at a decent price.

*The last time I looked, Sidekick was not available at Hero Games, but is now.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:06 am

Treebore wrote:
I have seen his type of 3E player before. He spends all week doing different builds to see what "optimum" build he wants to work towards with his character in the game.

That makes me want to choke myself to death.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:34 pm

I would probably not game with him unless he was GMing, then I can ask some people on the WotC forums to make all this building thoughts for me and let him have the worst part of 3.5, the game preparations.
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old school gamer · Post by **old school gamer** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:46 pm

I am a long-time player of the Champions/Hero System and I have always said that the best thing about it is that you can make any character you want to make in nearly every genre. I have also said that the worse thing about Champions/Hero System is that you can make anything you want.

It is very easy to get too caught up in character creation and trying to point-whore yourself to glory. The whole idea with the system is that you are supposed to use the system create a character around a concept build. You decide what your concept is and then create it using the system. The Hero System does this very well, but there are players that just try to squeeze every little point they have to create a total combat monster that probably couldn't get a job working the fry counter at Burger King.

As a GM of the system you have to keep a close eye on things like this or you will have out of control characters in your game. This is one of the reasons why I have gotten alot more stricter in my Pulp Hero game than in the Superhero game I used to run.

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Lurker wrote:
I can't agree more. It is one thing to have a game planned & funnel the group into it, it is even better if you have 4 or 5 things on the warmers & let the party take their own path. They will enjoy it more & actually have a reasion to go around "poking" things IMHO...

After my college days, I've had no luck this technique. During college (which seem to have been my RPG glory days) people would make up their subpots and then roll with the ones you tossed in. This was was when I was working with GURPS and Storyteller.

After college, it seems that you average gamer who plays at the game store wants everything spelled out and a big neon sign pointing down the path. Unfortantely, I started counting my blessings with these guys becuase then there was the guys who pathologicaly AVOIDED everything. From the neon sign to subltle subplot clues, these guys seem to think the idea of gaming is to force the GM to pander the entire session to their whims. Anything done to get them to work with the rest of the group is sneered at as "railroading."

That's when I learned there's a difference between "Role Playing" and "Role Assumption." i.e., you PC is a personna in a game, not an excuse to method act your way into being an egotistical loner.

Troll Lord Games

One player on why he doesn't want to give C&C a try...

One player on why he doesn't want to give C&C a try...

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