Destiny & Shadow...

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:50 am

Destiny and Shadow is a recent release from Fantasy Flight Games for the Midnight campaign setting for the modern D&D rules. For $14.95 you get 63 pages of a micro setting within the Midnight world.

What does that have to do with C&C you ask? Well it could be a great deal for CKs. Destiny & Shadow decribes a small section of the Midnight campaign setting and although designed for the v3.x and Midnight game, this book contains only 4-5 pages of crunch. The rest is pure setting.

There is no doubt that I have been a Midnight fan since the setting was released, but this book is just written so damn well. Even if you don't own or know anything about the world of Midnight, Destiny & Shadow could with just a little work contain and entire micro setting in 63 pages.

Destiny & Shadow oozes and exudes copious amouts of dripping "setting" all over your brain (as does the rest of the books in the series for that matter). Midnight and the Destiny & Shadow book is all about tone and feel within a setting.

Bottom line is that I think that any CK could run a damn fine campaign using the C&C core books and just this one book of the Midnight setting.

Just an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for some time. The Destiny & Shadow book only reinforced this thought.

.............................................Omote

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:59 am

Thanks. I've always wanted to take a closer look at Midnight. Looks like this will be an excellent way for me to do so.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:45 pm

I've heard a lot of good things about the Midnight setting in general, do you have any details on Destiny and Shadow, what makes it so great?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:39 pm

I was happy and content in my little corner of the universe with my C&C, my Dragonlance and my Greyhawk. Now in the lat 48hrs, while browsing over at Noble Knight, I've stumbled across Sovereign Stone, Ramlar and Midnight and my interest has piqued.

Midnight is definately a campaign I'm interested in. One god? And he's eeeevil? Sounds nifty.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:15 am

Well, in AtS we have the table of contents on the front page (linked) and some more thoughts on the book in a thread (linked too). For those seeking a feel close to Tolkien it will qualify well, an i have yet to get said book.

I am a great fan of the setting, and have done one review on a sourcebook for the northlands, from where the orcs came and where the body of s god lies, you can read it here, a pretty detailed and extensive review of a 64 pages book, if you ask me.

I know all the authors of that book, none personally, but they are all posters of our fansite.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:01 am

Maliki wrote:
...what makes it so great?

Traditional fantasy, with a very dark twist. As Nif stated, very Tolkeinesque in flavor but a world where evil has won the eternal war. Now the armies of darkness cover the land and the goodly heroes are the hunted.

For people to get into the setting, the core book tends to be a bit on the expensive side ($49.95), and it's d20. This has kept some away, but for the cost I can tell you that I have not been more engrossed in such an expensive book. I have used elements and it's amazing ideas and setting points in all of my other settings.

But I generated this thread for the sole reason of a cost effective way to get into the Midnight setting, while getting some top-notch writing for only $14.95. Destiny & Shadow gets the mood of the setting down well, and with so little crunch, makes the book valuable to players of other systems (like C&C)!!!

Midnight is extremely setting intensive... more so then any other traditional fantasy paper and pencil RPG in my humble opinion. Midnight produces many challanges for players of fantasy RPGs that they may not have experienced before. For example:

Magic is dangerous ~ Clerics of the one remaining god Izrador have means to "sniff out" magic and destroy those who weild it.

The world is overrun and controlled by the forces of evil. This comes mostly in the form of Izrador's limitless foul orc armies who's reach extends to all but the most secret, and hidden of places.

Literacy, and even the carrying of common weapons is often punishable by death.

There is one god and he is not nice. Therefore good clerics simply don't exist. Without the means to heal from the local cleric of good, combat becomes very dangerous affair. What heroes have the time to sit around under bed rest while they recover?

The generals and usupers of the world are almost completely unstoppable being as close to demi-gods as one can be.

The world is intensely magical, but much of this information is lost, held in secret or simply doesn't work like it used to.

The spirit world is changed. The dark god Izrador tricked the gods of old and shattered the veil between the spirit world and the afterlife. This final act of world-desecration meant that the spirits of the deceased reamin behind upon the world. Some times death is not a release. The dark god and his minions harness the power of the dead in vile means by producing armies of undead to hunt down and destroy the heroes and any element of hope the world might have left.

Darkness and death are everywhere... but there is hope. There are true heroes who covertly strike out at Izrador and his armies of evil. Heroes who fight the impossible fight to keep some sense of the past and good alive within the hearts of those who have not fallen to the dark powers.

It is just these few elements that make the world of Midnight challenging, and an extremely viable roleplaying setting.

Oh yeah, a movie based on the setting is in post prodroduction and set to be released summer of 2007!

~ Destiny & Shadow is a nice gateway into the Midnight setting, but is far from the whole picture.

.........................................Omote

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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:37 pm

Thanks for the heads-up. A low-crunch Midnight setting book would be perfect....possibly.

I have the 1st edition of the Midnight campaign setting. Would it still be useful? I kind-of lost touch with Midnight after they put out the 2nd edition.

They went overboard with the elves (but hey, isn't that part of the Tolkienistic descriptor? ), but I actually really liked what they did with the gnomes.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:49 pm

If you're going for just setting material, and no crunch... the 1st edtion of Midnight is just fine. Midnight 2E essentially combined two of the 1E books together into one, cleaned up some rules (for v3.5) and added a nice amount of "fluff." But Midnight 1E is still good stuff, and in no way affects any possible conversion to C&C.

................................................Omote

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:29 pm

You've sold me on the setting Omote. I placed an order for the 2e book this morning. I'm used to ignoring the 3e crunch in books I buy anyways.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:04 pm

Call me a fanboy, but DD you won't be dissappointed. Midnight stands out as unique, while containing some of the elements that made us love fantasy role-playing. The setting is so alive, but so dark. This oppressive tone is so deeply ingrained into the setting that Midnight might not be for everybody. But I think that C&Cers see games like this in a different light. A world that is very challanging, while containing many role-playing opportunities.

To fully intergrate Midnight into C&C, some conversion would be neccessary (spells arn't Vancian-like in Midnight). The heroes of the setting (the PCs) are often times "blooded" and contain the racial heritage and traits of powerful bloodlines. This element of the game would be fairly easy to convert should you want to incorporate this, but would need conversion none-the-less.

Best wishes and dark gaming, DD.

...........................................Omote

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:16 pm

Yeah, the dark aspects to it intrigue me. I was talking to my wife about the setting as well and its got her interested too. Still waiting on the book but it's looking like I might have a new setting to run games in after my Dragonlance campaign winds down.

Man my wife is gonna kill me when she realizes the number of gaming books I've ordered over the past few days. Oh well, I'll pick up the new Inuyasha DVD's for her to help smooth it over.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:05 pm

I've never heard of the setting but it sounds interesting.

Quote:
(the PCs) are often times "blooded" and contain the racial heritage and traits of powerful bloodlines. This element of the game would be fairly easy to convert should you want to incorporate this, but would need conversion none-the-less.

I've thought about doing that in some of my home brew worlds. Any good ideas on that (im sure if I look around at everyone's house rules I'll find info on it) but if any one has good rules for it.....

Quote:
Man my wife is gonna kill me when she realizes the number of gaming books I've ordered over the past few days. Oh well, I'll pick up the new Inuyasha DVD's for her to help smooth it over.

Know what you mean...... If I was a rich amn .....
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:30 pm

Lurker wrote:
Know what you mean...... If I was a rich amn .....

It helps that my wife is a gamer too, but it still doesn't stop her from wincing at some of my "sprees"

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:15 pm

Yes, Midnight is a very nice setting; I always compare it to "Lord of the Rings", after Sauron has won the War of the Ring (which might in itself be a VERY interesting situation to explore!)

It is not so difficult to "adapt" the rules; in fact, I DMed the setting by using the Rules Cyclopedia. I mostly "adapted" the spellcasting rules, rather than "convert" them.

For C&C I would do the following:

1) The first and essential thing to do, is to not allow clerics nor druids as PCs.

2) Spellcasters in the setting work (more or less) like 3.x sorcerers. A simple implementation using wizards and illusionists would be to allow exchanging an high level spell for a low level one, and allow spellcasters to cast all the spells they know at leisure. To balance things out, spellcasters cannot know more spells per level than they can cast in a day.

That's all!

Cheers,

Antonio

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:22 pm

Thanks for the info, a dark fantasty world sounds like a nice change of pace, and this does sound like a good way to get the feel of Midnight without spending a lot of $$.
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:33 pm

Wow, actual interest in C&C Midnight...

I've tested the waters before and it seemed to come up dry. Nice to see more people interested in Midnight!

Nif and I have a C&C conversion forum going on at:
http://www.againsttheshadow.org/index.php?board=21.0

I've been wanting to convert Midnight to C&C for a while (mostly dealing with Classes and Magic, as the classes are very important to Midnight, and magic is not your standard affair). Everything else is super easy to convert (though Heroic Paths would have to be reworked or dropped). 2E Midnight added more things to convert also (like how Outsiders have to Possess someone/thing, which then "turns into" the Outsider as it gains control over the host, love this idea!)

Midnight being D20 is the only reason I haven't played much C&C. I've realized that if you're a bit of a stickler for rules, like me, that a conversion is not super easy (it's rather messy actually). I could do it, if I had enough interest in it, it's just time consuming.

cheers!

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:25 am

phadeout wrote:
Wow, actual interest in C&C Midnight...

I've tested the waters before and it seemed to come up dry. Nice to see more people interested in Midnight!

Nif and I have a C&C conversion forum going on at:
http://www.againsttheshadow.org/index.php?board=21.0

I've been wanting to convert Midnight to C&C for a while (mostly dealing with Classes and Magic, as the classes are very important to Midnight, and magic is not your standard affair). Everything else is super easy to convert (though Heroic Paths would have to be reworked or dropped). 2E Midnight added more things to convert also (like how Outsiders have to Possess someone/thing, which then "turns into" the Outsider as it gains control over the host, love this idea!)

Midnight being D20 is the only reason I haven't played much C&C. I've realized that if you're a bit of a stickler for rules, like me, that a conversion is not super easy (it's rather messy actually). I could do it, if I had enough interest in it, it's just time consuming.

cheers!

If you try to "go over" the rules, you will find there are many ways to convey the "feeling" of a setting. C&C being so rules-light, gives you a lot of freedom in this respect. The ideas I described above are more or less the same I used with the Rules Cyclopedia adaptation, and they worked really well. Rules do not necessarily help in building atmosphere.

Cheers,

Antonio

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:38 pm

The most problematic aspect is really that magic in Midnight is available for everyone, with the d20 mechanics they used feats, with C&C we could only devise a new way.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:34 pm

Nifelhein wrote:
The most problematic aspect is really that magic in Midnight is available for everyone, with the d20 mechanics they used feats, with C&C we could only devise a new way.

Allow magic use on a successful intelligence or wisdom check, CC=10+spell level. Casting of the spell inflicts a number of hit points (as subdual damage) equal to 5 times the spell level, 10 times if the roll fails.

Cheers,

Antonio

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:45 pm

There's many ways you can add spellcasting to every player class in C&C. Since C&C doesn't use feats, you could simple add in a limited amount of basic feats, one of them being the ability to use magic. However, I'd be more inclined to simply allow multiclassing into the "magic" class, whatever that would be called. You could even just leave Wizard as the end-all-be-all magic class of the C&C Midnight setting.

.........................................Omote

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:53 pm

Honestly, I think the best way for the campaign to work with C&C while having the most minimal amount of conversion work is just to leave the classes as is. This changes the aspect slightly from the way Midnight was written for the 3.X game, but who cares? Midnight is all about a different style of fantasy RPGing in a very harsh, and unique setting. This can be conveyed through actual play rather then mechanics manipulation.

Of, as mentioned above by the esteemed rab, just make the opportunity to cast spells based on a SIEGE roll. Any character can learn the magic/spells of Aryth, but casting it successfully is another story. As a character advanced in levels, the casting of the spells becomes easier. The Wizard class would remain the bastion of magic spellcraft, without having to resort to a roll.

....................................Omote

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:02 pm

Omote wrote:
This can be conveyed through actual play rather then mechanics manipulation.

My all time favorite way of doing things.

I'm really looking forward to my book arriving.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:14 pm

I actually like how the channeller is nowhere near a spellcasting class, but much more versatile with spells on top of it, the later the level, the less spells he will cast.

The most simple way of doing a conversion I though of was to make the races, then go to the new classes (the defender is different from a monk, a wildlander is different from a ranger, the channellers are different from the spellcasters as a whole), drop some classes, like the and paladin.

After the classes I would make the heroic paths for C&C, and that is where I would change things around, using the paths to give characters the choice of learning a spell or getting some minor bonus, like the skill bonuses gained in the 3.X paths, for example.

For the spell list PhadeOut there already had the idea of keeping the 3.5 spells and adjusting them as necessary, this will make the conversion much less work intensive.

I like how the heroic paths are a 3rd dimension to character creation, working together with class and race, and the tiered abilities of the wildlander and defender classes from 2nd edition are also something I believe C&C can benefit a lot from.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:37 pm

Tiered abilities are fine, but if these classes were to be reworked for C&C they would have several advantages over the more mundane fighter, or rogue for example. That's why I suggest sticking to what C&C already offers. However sticking to C&C BTB is not neccessarily to correct or best path for a M2E conversion.

Nif, your outline of how to go about the conversion process is a smart one. I would defintely use your guildlines.

***

Now, back to the spellcasting classes. To minimize conversion process you could cut the wizard class and replace it with a new C&C-ized Channeler class. This is possible but of course requires more work.

The Defender and the Wilderlander are easy enough to convert, but I think that they would need to be kept more in line with the C&C style of classes. By that I mean that these classes don't have to be so ability intensive (they could of course, but balance becomes an issue if you give them a ton of abilities out of the gates, and more and more abilites as they advance in levels). This is just my thoughts.

If you wanted to do a more thurough, and consistant conversion from M2E you could just simply rewrite all of the classes from M2E. This, while time consuming, wouldn't be too difficult to accomplish. My only thought is that the re-writes of the classes begin to attain lots of abilites at each level of EPP. This is a problem becuase the rest of C&C is not written in this way. Monsters and enemies would easily, and very quickly become outmatched by the PCs as they are written in the M&T.

...........................................Omote

FPQ
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Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:01 pm

I do think the abilities would have to suffer a tone down, but I was thinking more to keep the idea of the class than the powers themselves, like the defender being either fast, defensive or a grappler. I think keeping the feel of a simpler game is good, so I would not place all those abilities, instead they would either become choices or vanish altogether. They would probably hang on the higher end of the xp progression too.

A second step for th conversion would be to see which spells from the Midnight spell list are already in C&C, then assemble that list, see which are not, and see which of those really need to be brought into the system, I do not think all 3.5 spell are fitting, specially those granting bonuses, and some of them are made to be useful only when they are first available, being usable later on makes them much more powerful.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:12 pm

At this point I do not see why use C&C at all. C&C is appealing because of how it is built. If one starts discarding all the classes, reworking the spells etc. nothing remains. You might have a simpler time by trying to use the SIEGE engine to solve checks.

This simplifies the assignment and working of skills in 3.x, I use it for my Conan d20 games.

Simply consider that every class starts with a given number of skills equal to the number of skill points at first level+int bonus.

These skills are chosen among the list of class skills.

Then, the character would roll 1d20 + level + ability modifier vs. a DC (the normal DCs are calculated at 3 points less).

No need to assign skill points at each level; level and ability modifier suffice.

Then, when the character is eligible for a feat, he can use it to buy another skill on his class skill (at maximum level) or buy a cross class skill (at half level) or update a cross class skill from half to full level.

That's all for skills.

All the rest handle as per 3.x rules. Oh, and ditch attacks of opportunity and all the crap on actions, half actions, swift actions etc.

Cheers,

Antonio

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:30 pm

That's the problem rab, there is so much stuff to then discard from the v3.5 rules that why not just let it it fall to the easier C&C rules.

PLUS, I think there are a few people out there that want to see a codfied set of rules all in one place for a C&C M2E conversion; a definative C&C-Midnight rulesbook as it woud be. *dreams*

.......................................Omote

FPQ
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:45 pm

Omote wrote:
That's the problem rab, there is so much stuff to then discard from the v3.5 rules that why not just let it it fall to the easier C&C rules.

PLUS, I think there are a few people out there that want to see a codfied set of rules all in one place for a C&C M2E conversion; a definative C&C-Midnight rulesbook as it woud be. *dreams*

.......................................Omote

FPQ

I agree. The problem is, it would not be a conversion, but a complete rewrite.

You know how I like tinkering with settings and adaptations, but I am just not a fan of rewriting all of an existing system to accommodate the needs of a setting. Almost all of the classes in Midnight are just fancy rewritings of common archetypes, which already exist in C&C (defender=monk, wildlander=ranger). I would just give different backgrounds and motivations for the existence of a class in a setting.

I guess it is a vastly more fruitful effort to distill the characteristics of a setting and finding the closest match in an existing game system rather than "reinventing the wheel"; an approach I fruitfully followed for my Dragonlance adaptation.

As I said before, Midnight worked wonderfully as a setting even with just the Rules Cyclopedia (only 4 classes and general skills), and this is something noteworthy.

Cheers,

Antonio

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:45 pm

Nifelhein wrote:
I actually like how the channeller is nowhere near a spellcasting class, but much more versatile with spells on top of it, the later the level, the less spells he will cast.I like how the heroic paths are a 3rd dimension to character creation, working together with class and race, and the tiered abilities of the wildlander and defender classes from 2nd edition are also something I believe C&C can benefit a lot from.

My suggestion: A spell point system (such as in Unearthed Arcana or the hypertext d20 SRD) and multi/dual classing. The overall cap of spells is low, but you get more flexiblity.

I'd treat Heroic Paths like PrC's, the GM preselects the choices of feats and skill bonuses, turning them into bonus abilities a PC gets with every new level. Since everyone gets Heroic Paths, I wouldn't worry about power level. Though speaking of levels, this concept may favor the cheaper classes as Assasin and Rogue, which might be more "realistic" for the setting.

I agree that the lack of spell casting classes (C&C's ranger, knight and bard) make for much easier "Quick and Dirty" conversion. Simply use as is, though I'd have to take away the Knight's and Paladin's steeds.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:00 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
The problem is, it would not be a conversion, but a complete rewrite.

We know how you love tinkering! But you are right about this, as this conversion goes the conversion process does almost complete turn into a rewrite. For posting purposes I'm OK with talking about such rewrites, even though actually I'm more inclined to leave C&C as is and inject the setting to that mold, with slight modification/additions of course (like heroic paths) and slight adjustments to spellcasting... which BTW, I think is totally feasible.

...................................................Omote

FPQ
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