Adapting Non-Weapon Proficiencies

[Dagger]

I really loved Non-Weapon Proficiencies in AD&D 2nd Edition and want to adapt them to C&C. I've been considering importing them "as is" in regard to how many and often slots are earned. What tips do you all have as far as the mechanics go? I intend to incorporate them into the SIEGE Engine and give each slot spent on a proficiency a +1 to the attribute roll. Attribute checks rolled to use a proficiency would NOT add the level to the check. I've also considered having the class level added as well as the bonus. What have you all done in the past? Thanks!

[Metathiax]

Depending on how many and how fast proficiency slots are acquired, a +1 bonus per slot spent might not be a very significant advantage when compared with learning a new proficiency. AD&D's non-weapon proficiencies always seemed to be tacked on the game's system to me. I would rather use the SIEGE engine as is. My players also get Secondary Skills (AD&D-style) to add a bit more flavor to their background. They obtain some mechanical advantages when using these mostly non-adventuring related skills.
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[Rigon]

I've thought about using the 2e NWPs, but decided against it since there are a few proficiencies that over lap with specific class skills. I opted to use the 1e secondary skills instead.

But if I were going to use NWPs, I'd do it like you have it.

R-
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[Jason Vey]

I'd say to make it worthwhile, start by letting the initial slot add +3 to the relevant check; additional slots spent on the same skill increase that bonus by +1 per slot.

[Omote]

I use a modified version of 2E non-weapon proficiencies. I just made up the list, and took away the skills that overlapped with class abilities. I also use 2E secondary skill pretty much "as is." This makes my games a bit more skill-oriented them most C&C games, but has worked pretty well.

......................................Omote

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[gideon_thorne]

I'm inclined to let people buy up +'s in things.

Any +1 to something like a specific narrow defined 'skill' is 500 xp per.

Nice and simple.
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Peter Bradley

[Jason Vey]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I'm inclined to let people buy up +'s in things.

Any +1 to something like a specific narrow defined 'skill' is 500 xp per.

Nice and simple.

A precedent that was set by Yggsburgh. I have to say I don't like the idea of both spending XP *and* using it to level. In the end, the costs of picking up those skills or abilities completely outweigh the benefits of leveling up. I prefer a tacked on house system that works within the framework of the overall SIEGE Engine, but also doesn't interfere with the process of leveling up.

But then...Peter is the main artist and cartographer for the line, so you should probably listen to him over me

[gideon_thorne]

The Grey Elf wrote:
But then...Peter is the main artist and cartographer for the line, so you should probably listen to him over me

*snorts* Im just offering a game mechanical opinion for something I've done for a long time. I certainly don't have a 'my way is the only way' attitude about it.

I just liked CZ cause it matched something a group I gamed with 'back in the day' did.
I think it was something the DM extrapolated out of Mentzer's weapons mastery rules actually. ^_^
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[Jason Vey]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*snorts* Im just offering a game mechanical opinion for something I've done for a long time. I certainly don't have a 'my way is the only way' attitude about it.

I just liked CZ cause it matched something a group I gamed with 'back in the day' did.

YEAH! What do YOU know, anyway!?

Quote:
I think it was something the DM extrapolated out of Mentzer's weapons mastery rules actually. ^_^

It has just always felt completely counterintuitive to me, both using XP to level AND to buy things. I'd rather just tack on a skill system; if you do it equally across the board it won't disrupt balance even a little, and it's a lot simpler than keeping track of spent vs. accumulated XP.

Plus, I STILL maintain the costs far outweigh the benefits as presented in the Yggsburgh book.

[Dragonhelm]

Rigon wrote:
I've thought about using the 2e NWPs, but decided against it since there are a few proficiencies that over lap with specific class skills.

What I would do in this case is have the specific class skills give a bonus of some sort to the NWP. So a rogue could not only pick a pocket, he could do it with his eyes shut.

Maybe a +1 or +2 bonus?
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[gideon_thorne]

The Grey Elf wrote:
It has just always felt completely counterintuitive to me, both using XP to level AND to buy things. I'd rather just tack on a skill system; if you do it equally across the board it won't disrupt balance even a little, and it's a lot simpler than keeping track of spent vs. accumulated XP.

Plus, I STILL maintain the costs far outweigh the benefits as presented in the Yggsburgh book.

Balance? What is this balance thing you speak of?
I dont mind the costs. Course I'm one of those who likes to develop characters over long term, so cost isn't a big deal for me. Also, I tend to award rp experience for such skills and one can use found gold to pay down the xp cost pretty fast. Its not that big a deal. ^_~`
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[Birthright]

dagger4192 wrote:
I really loved Non-Weapon Proficiencies in AD&D 2nd Edition and want to adapt them to C&C. I've been considering importing them "as is" in regard to how many and often slots are earned. What tips do you all have as far as the mechanics go? I intend to incorporate them into the SIEGE Engine and give each slot spent on a proficiency a +1 to the attribute roll. Attribute checks rolled to use a proficiency would NOT add the level to the check. I've also considered having the class level added as well as the bonus. What have you all done in the past? Thanks!

How about +3 for the first slot of the NWP, +2 for the second and +1 for each slot thereafter (stacking of course)? Use a standard atribute check to resolve the outcome where there is some question as to the result. I wouldn't add level to these checks.

If you want to emphasise "specialization" in NWPs to set apart the "Masters" from the "merely proficient", you could change this to a flat +2 per slot.

So many possibilities...

[Rigon]

Dragonhelm wrote:
What I would do in this case is have the specific class skills give a bonus of some sort to the NWP. So a rogue could not only pick a pocket, he could do it with his eyes shut.

Maybe a +1 or +2 bonus?

This is how I had originally thought about using the proficiencies:

Proficiencies give the character a +2 bonus to checks. For each additional slot taken with the same proficiency, the character would gain and additional +1 to the check. So a fighter who took tracking as a proficiency would gain a +2 to track. If the same fighter took tracking again, he would now have a +3 to track.

This would still allow for some overlap of class abilities, but not over shadow the class skills of a class like the ranger (who gets to add their class level to checks, plus the ranger character could take tracking also and gain the +2 to their normal check).

Maybe something to think about later down the road, as I've decided to go with secondary skills, mostly as written. Mostly.

R-
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[Lurker]

One question, well a few. How many slots (if used) would someone have on creation, & when would they get more slots. Also, would different classes receive different amounts, aka a cleric being more of a thinker get more than a knuckle dragging fighter?
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[serleran]

I'd give the character X number of proficiency slots, which are then used to give the character his level on any checks related to the proficiency. NO increasing the chance, except by level increase, and some would still require additional slots. I'd also roll several of the NWPs into one, like getting rid of fire-building and making it part of survival, which would then be increased in cost (since its a freaking class ability anyway....); actually, for that one, I'd probably make it a "NWP tree" in which the character gets certain benefits, staggered, as they level, so as to not impose so heavily on the ranger class which already gets the ability -- the same for any other class/race ability which would then be interloped.

As for the number, I'd give 3 + Int or Wis modifier, whichever is better, with zero being possible. If the character is aged (taking all penalties for it) then another +1 per category of age, so, a PC at venerable age, having an 18 in either, would get 9 NWPs. Ever.

[Rigon]

Lurker wrote:
One question, well a few. How many slots (if used) would someone have on creation, & when would they get more slots. Also, would different classes receive different amounts, aka a cleric being more of a thinker get more than a knuckle dragging fighter?

I go wit \h the slots as set up in 2e. Warrior types (fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin, and knight) 3 initial, Priest types (monk, cleric, and druid) 4 initial, wizard types (wizard and illusionist) 4 initial, and rogue types (rogue, assassin, and bard) 3 initial. Then the character would get bonus slots based on their Int modifier. They would gain slots in the same way. Warriors 1/3 levels, Priests 1/3 levels, Wizards 1/3 levels, Rogues 1/4 levels. Although, I'd probably monkey with the numbers a bit.

R-
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[Dagger]

Lurker wrote:
One question, well a few. How many slots (if used) would someone have on creation, & when would they get more slots. Also, would different classes receive different amounts, aka a cleric being more of a thinker get more than a knuckle dragging fighter?

I was considering just taking the system directly from 2nd Edition, number of slots and all. I would keep the SIEGE Engine in place exactly as written. Anytime a character attempted something that was covered by one of their NWPs, they would get a +2 per slot on their attribute roll. So, the NWPs would simply represent practice of that particular skill... it wouldn't make it a class skill or anything like that. Example: A fighter uses a slot to gain Hunting. When he attempts to hunt, I'd have him roll against his Challenge Base (based on Prime or Secondary), add the appropriate attribute modifier, and he would get +2 for studying Hunting. However, since Hunting is not a class ability for the fighter, he would NOT add his level to the check.

It seems pretty easy to tack on since it doesn't change the SIEGE Engine whatsoever. I think of it like a situational modifier based on the fact he studied that particular subject.

[Rigon]

dagger4192 wrote:
I was considering just taking the system directly from 2nd Edition, number of slots and all. I would keep the SIEGE Engine in place exactly as written. Anytime a character attempted something that was covered by one of their NWPs, they would get a +2 per slot on their attribute roll. So, the NWPs would simply represent practice of that particular skill... it wouldn't make it a class skill or anything like that. Example: A fighter uses a slot to gain Hunting. When he attempts to hunt, I'd have him roll against his Challenge Base (based on Prime or Secondary), add the appropriate attribute modifier, and he would get +2 for studying Hunting. However, since Hunting is not a class ability for the fighter, he would NOT add his level to the check.

It seems pretty easy to tack on since it doesn't change the SIEGE Engine whatsoever. I think of it like a situational modifier based on the fact he studied that particular subject.

That's how I'd do it.

R-
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[Lurker]

Sounds good & thanks for the ideas & help.

Quote:
was considering just taking the system directly from 2nd Edition, number of slots and all. I would keep the SIEGE Engine in place exactly as written. Anytime a character attempted something that was covered by one of their NWPs, they would get a +2 per slot on their attribute roll. So, the NWPs would simply represent practice of that particular skill... it wouldn't make it a class skill or anything like that. Example: A fighter uses a slot to gain Hunting. When he attempts to hunt, I'd have him roll against his Challenge Base (based on Prime or Secondary), add the appropriate attribute modifier, and he would get +2 for studying Hunting. However, since Hunting is not a class ability for the fighter, he would NOT add his level to the check.

I like this but am also thinking about playing with skill trees, or things that would be more of a big brush skill survival which covers hunting etc- costing more. Some number crunching & what ifs to do.
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