How to Build a Universe

[Penny-Whistle]

Yeah, when you have new players, meaning new to RPG's, you tend to have to lead them around until they get how to play. Now I have ran into people who never seem to learn how to play, but thats another issue. Anyways, once they "get it", I find its best to just sit back, throw out seed after seed, and see what the players grab on to and nurture that into whatever adventures are to come. The fun then comes naturally from the creative interplay between the CK and their players.

So I think perhaps the most important thing to become as a CK is a facilitator, rather than a orchestrator. Respond organically to what they do, within the context of what they do, rather than in pre arranged, spelled out, step by step scripts.

Also, I've seen a lot of people who don't like to think of being a CK/GM/DM as an "adversarial" role. I think that is hogwash. I am trying to kill the PC's. Just because I try to do it in a fair, fun way, doesn't mean I am not being adversarial, it just means I am not being as mean, vicious, under handed, and overwhelming as real life can be. Of course, at the higher levels, they can actually handle that kind of stuff as well. But unlike real life, I always strive to be fair about it. IE, they have a chance of actually over coming the obstacles. Even so, every once in a while will throw in no win situations, not that will necessarily kill their PC, but where they will fail, just to remind them that just because their PC's are powerful, and can do so many super heroic things, doesn't mean they are gods, and cannot be stopped.

One of the things I've enjoyed about Aergraith's games is that he plays the NPCs so well. Our party used to joke that he would feel sad when his monsters died. There were times when I even apologized. haha. We may have been fighting for our lives but we also understood where they were coming from. And if they were simply capricious he was able to add some humour or some other device to keep it interesting.

"Facilitator.' That is a clarifying description.

[Penny-Whistle]

Right, setting up those situations with all those monsters and NPC bad guys isn't trying to do anything.

Right. In a sandbox it is the players who knowingly go after (or not) big nasty things. Especially since MOST of the world isn't evil and nasty towards the PCs. I have no desire to kill or, to keep alive PCs.

That was one of the most important lessons I learned about playing these games: you don't always have to attack everything you encounter. Players have the freedom to not engage in combat. They can take a different route, try reasoning with the monster, co-opt them into joining your party, hide, etc. That idea really changed the game for me and helped me become more of a role player than a dice roller. Not that I am there yet -- still learning.

[Penny-Whistle]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

Can so. They can appear through a portal or other magical effect. If that has been an established possibility within the sandbox.

I remember a game session ending with our party on the top of a hill looking down on a plain where an army of orcs was assembled. It was so SCARY and I could NOT get that image out of my mind but I had to wait until the next time we played to find out what happened. haha

[Penny-Whistle]

I simply set up the nasties with a few random possibilities and let the PCs own greed and dice kill them. Though I do admit to fudging a roll result from time to time depending on if the PCs are being smart and having bad luck or being dipwits and ticking me off. 0:)

It interests me how much people really care about the characters they create. Some people cannot handle the idea of their character dying; others are more cavalier. When leading a game it is probably pretty important to know how your players might react. I have no trouble imagining some people might really feel threatened by character death. To facilitate player enjoyment it would be important to judge how people might react.

I feel so bad that you've had these unpleasant experiences! When is a game not a game? When it isn't fun anymore.

[Arduin]

Right, setting up those situations with all those monsters and NPC bad guys isn't trying to do anything.

Right. In a sandbox it is the players who knowingly go after (or not) big nasty things. Especially since MOST of the world isn't evil and nasty towards the PCs. I have no desire to kill or, to keep alive PCs.

That was one of the most important lessons I learned about playing these games: you don't always have to attack everything you encounter. Players have the freedom to not engage in combat. They can take a different route, try reasoning with the monster, co-opt them into joining your party, hide, etc. That idea really changed the game for me and helped me become more of a role player than a dice roller. Not that I am there yet -- still learning.

Exactly. I try to play "monsters" for what they are. When playing ones that have a good reasoning ability (Orcs) they have survival motivations that can be played upon by PCs without resorting to combat in many cases.

[Go0gleplex]

Funny you should say that Ard. One game that I played in was ran by Paul Culotta. Guy was a fantastic DM. Just going to the market was a wild ride. Anyhow, this particular session he had us playing a ball game equivalent vs orcs that were there to trade in town.

I've always tried to play intelligent critters with their intelligence but have almost always had to dumb them down to avoid wiping the PCs out in the first five minutes of an encounter. Tactics doesn't seem to be in most players vocabulary/skill set. At least those I've encountered here in the PNW.

[Arduin]

Funny you should say that Ard. One game that I played in was ran by Paul Culotta. Guy was a fantastic DM. Just going to the market was a wild ride. Anyhow, this particular session he had us playing a ball game equivalent vs orcs that were there to trade in town.

I've always tried to play intelligent critters with their intelligence but have almost always had to dumb them down to avoid wiping the PCs out in the first five minutes of an encounter. Tactics doesn't seem to be in most players vocabulary/skill set. At least those I've encountered here in the PNW.

You said it. I can set up a squad of Orcs in such a way as to wipe 4th level groups run by most players. I'm just happy that my group consists of enough ol' war gamers so they can play their Fighter types properly and counter such routine actions.

[alcyone]

In the game I was running last I started out using the monster charts from Delving Deeper for encounters in the wilderness. I went with whatever I got, be it rats or a dragon. But I didn't set up the encounters the same as I would in a dungeon where the PCs are a major threat and are trespassers. A dragon would talk, ask for news, maybe demand some of their horses for a snack. Certainly the PCs could escalate it to a fight, but from the dragon's perspective, they aren't worth the trouble.

Also, outdoors, you have encounter distance, stealth, surprise. If I roll a group of bandits they aren't waiting in ambush unless they expected someone to be coming by. Otherwise they are making noise, going about their business, weapons not at the ready.

I use techniques to allow me to drop anything sensible into the sandbox even if it's an impossible fighting challenge. These can serve a lot of purposes besides something to kill or be killed by. If I rolled 300 orcs, I'd come up with a reason for them to be there or discard them, but after the game I'd be placing an orc culture somewhere, deciding the consequences of their presence, etc. Of course, at the moment the orcs appear the characters can only find so much out, so I don't need all the answers at that point. In my desert campaign (which doesn't really have orcs yet), a group that size would be headed somewhere and not just hunting for parties of adventurers. Sure, they'd kill them if they thought they'd be reporting their location or something. Or they'd ignore them and not break discipline for a few randoms in the open desert. Or they might just ask directions. If things went south and the party decided to run, they wouldn't commit 300 of their number to chasing them down; a few riders would be deemed sufficient if any.

I do cut my players some slack, even if they don't believe me. And it makes for memories other than a trip to the church to get raised or rolling up a new character.

[serleran]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

Can so. They can appear through a portal or other magical effect. If that has been an established possibility within the sandbox.

Sort of like Ravenloft, the original module. Very much a sandbox environment (although some will argue its a railroad.) It may not be orcs, but "something' can appear as part of the natural course of where the party is.

Perhaps some restrain their sandboxes to static planes. Others might use chaos.

[Treebore]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

I find it interesting you think there is a fixed definition for "sandbox" games since such a definition is still being contested in the RPG community.

[Arduin]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

Can so. They can appear through a portal or other magical effect. If that has been an established possibility within the sandbox.

Sort of like Ravenloft, the original module. Very much a sandbox environment (although some will argue its a railroad.) It may not be orcs, but "something' can appear as part of the natural course of where the party is.

Perhaps some restrain their sandboxes to static planes. Others might use chaos.

Sure. Technically a sandbox could have black holes randomly appearing during High Tea (especially when clotted cream is served) and destroy a few hundred cubic miles. But, were talking about some place like a Greyhawk not a Alice in Wonderland schema.

[Arduin]

I find it interesting you think there is a fixed definition for "sandbox" games since such a definition is still being contested in the RPG community.

And I find it interesting that you think that 300 orcs randomly appearing out of thin air is what passes for a sandbox game. But, to each his own.

[Treebore]

I find it interesting you think there is a fixed definition for "sandbox" games since such a definition is still being contested in the RPG community.

And I find it interesting that you think that 300 orcs randomly appearing out of thin air is what passes for a sandbox game. But, to each his own.

No, you said that, not me. Your the one who even brought the word "sandbox" into this discussion. I've always been talking about YOU, and ME, as the CK, taking responsibility for how tough any encounter they have is or isn't. Your the one who brought sandbox in as a distraction.

So if you want to go back to what I was saying...

[serleran]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

Can so. They can appear through a portal or other magical effect. If that has been an established possibility within the sandbox.

Sort of like Ravenloft, the original module. Very much a sandbox environment (although some will argue its a railroad.) It may not be orcs, but "something' can appear as part of the natural course of where the party is.

Perhaps some restrain their sandboxes to static planes. Others might use chaos.

Sure. Technically a sandbox could have black holes randomly appearing during High Tea (especially when clotted cream is served) and destroy a few hundred cubic miles. But, were talking about some place like a Greyhawk not a Alice in Wonderland schema.

Funny. Greyhawk has its own Alice in Wonderland (and many more, much more random and quixotic places)... apparently Greyhawk is a sandbox within a sandbox.

[Penny-Whistle]

Funny you should say that Ard. One game that I played in was ran by Paul Culotta. Guy was a fantastic DM. Just going to the market was a wild ride. Anyhow, this particular session he had us playing a ball game equivalent vs orcs that were there to trade in town.

I've always tried to play intelligent critters with their intelligence but have almost always had to dumb them down to avoid wiping the PCs out in the first five minutes of an encounter. Tactics doesn't seem to be in most players vocabulary/skill set. At least those I've encountered here in the PNW.

I love playing games within games. In Rhuvein's game when we were in the underworld we got to play the ancient Egyptian game senet. That was really fun.

So to add to my list of How to Build a World we've got: make the conflicts difficult, add in surprises, use dramatic devices such as humour, give the monsters a motivation and consider putting a game within the game. Hope I didn't miss anyone's suggestion.

You all are a great resource. ty

[Penny-Whistle]

In the game I was running last I started out using the monster charts from Delving Deeper for encounters in the wilderness. I went with whatever I got, be it rats or a dragon. But I didn't set up the encounters the same as I would in a dungeon where the PCs are a major threat and are trespassers. A dragon would talk, ask for news, maybe demand some of their horses for a snack. Certainly the PCs could escalate it to a fight, but from the dragon's perspective, they aren't worth the trouble.

Also, outdoors, you have encounter distance, stealth, surprise. If I roll a group of bandits they aren't waiting in ambush unless they expected someone to be coming by. Otherwise they are making noise, going about their business, weapons not at the ready.

I use techniques to allow me to drop anything sensible into the sandbox even if it's an impossible fighting challenge. These can serve a lot of purposes besides something to kill or be killed by. If I rolled 300 orcs, I'd come up with a reason for them to be there or discard them, but after the game I'd be placing an orc culture somewhere, deciding the consequences of their presence, etc. Of course, at the moment the orcs appear the characters can only find so much out, so I don't need all the answers at that point. In my desert campaign (which doesn't really have orcs yet), a group that size would be headed somewhere and not just hunting for parties of adventurers. Sure, they'd kill them if they thought they'd be reporting their location or something. Or they'd ignore them and not break discipline for a few randoms in the open desert. Or they might just ask directions. If things went south and the party decided to run, they wouldn't commit 300 of their number to chasing them down; a few riders would be deemed sufficient if any.

I do cut my players some slack, even if they don't believe me. And it makes for memories other than a trip to the church to get raised or rolling up a new character.

This makes sense to me. Rolling for random encounters could be a good way to think divergently and break out of routine thinking.

[Penny-Whistle]

So when you create these encounters your players just randomly run into, you don't care if its balanced? You don't make sure it isn't too tough? If you roll 300 Orcs for the encounter with the 1st level party,

I see that you are inexperienced when it comes to a sandbox game. 300 orcs cannot appear from nowhere and without a LOT of impact on the environment. You don't "roll for 300 orcs" to appear.

Can so. They can appear through a portal or other magical effect. If that has been an established possibility within the sandbox.

Sort of like Ravenloft, the original module. Very much a sandbox environment (although some will argue its a railroad.) It may not be orcs, but "something' can appear as part of the natural course of where the party is.

Perhaps some restrain their sandboxes to static planes. Others might use chaos.

I loved the tarot cards in Ravenloft! That was such a clever idea.

[Arduin]

Funny. Greyhawk has its own Alice in Wonderland

Not as its default landscape. Straw man there. Far beneath your usual quality of posting.

[Lurker]

I can picture how a setting might reflect our economics and our understanding of science. But I wonder how you were able to incorporate your faith into your setting. I'd like to hear more. I suppose that one of the reasons these games endure is that people have so much freedom to express what is important to them.

Sorry, I've limited free time and only been able to skim the board, as such I missed your post and didn't reply earlier.

Faith (my personal, or any one eleses for that mater) is tricky. I never want to be preachy, but at the same time my Judao/Christian - Greco/Roman beliefs form a background underpinning to the religion/faith of the setting.

There is Good (big G good, not just little g run of the mill good) and Evil. They oppose but are not balanced. There are people, things wholly sold into evil, but there are some that are on the cusp that the good should try and redeem. However, they don't have to be stupid in it.

As such, the games I ran back in the day were never just hack and slash, dungeon crawls. They can have those elements at times, but there is a background of the good/evil.

Now as a history guy, I also bring in things like corrupted good (Pope Alexandra & Julius selling indulgences) and resulting reformations countering the corruption. This results in 'good' fighting 'good'.

[Go0gleplex]

A bit similar to Lurker there though slightly different. My world's pantheon consists of three powers. The God of Light, Nature, and Evil. The Good church has a schism going within it and an active 'civil war' if you will wherein the zealots are at war with those that tacitly acknowledge the existence of the power of Nature. Of course the angels are involved being the physical manifestation of Light's powers, vs the Aspects of nature (giant animals or elementals), vs the demons (slaughter happy) and devils (corrupters and reps of Evil).

I've ran various pantheons I've made up over the decades and played under others. I think the most effective ones are those that tend to reflect personal beliefs or familiar history. Not to say that those are the only way to run them just that in my experience those types seem to be the easiest to run, especially if off the cuff.

[Penny-Whistle]

I can picture how a setting might reflect our economics and our understanding of science. But I wonder how you were able to incorporate your faith into your setting. I'd like to hear more. I suppose that one of the reasons these games endure is that people have so much freedom to express what is important to them.

Sorry, I've limited free time and only been able to skim the board, as such I missed your post and didn't reply earlier.

Faith (my personal, or any one eleses for that mater) is tricky. I never want to be preachy, but at the same time my Judao/Christian - Greco/Roman beliefs form a background underpinning to the religion/faith of the setting.

There is Good (big G good, not just little g run of the mill good) and Evil. They oppose but are not balanced. There are people, things wholly sold into evil, but there are some that are on the cusp that the good should try and redeem. However, they don't have to be stupid in it.

As such, the games I ran back in the day were never just hack and slash, dungeon crawls. They can have those elements at times, but there is a background of the good/evil.

Now as a history guy, I also bring in things like corrupted good (Pope Alexandra & Julius selling indulgences) and resulting reformations countering the corruption. This results in 'good' fighting 'good'.

np. Forums can be a real time sink. I assumed you either didn't see the question or felt it was too personal. I appreciate your well thought response. And, yes. I see where you are coming from here. The narrative structure of people fighting for some kind of redemption is so central to our whole culture that it just naturally fits. It would in fact be difficult to create an alternative narrative. I can't think of a single example.

[Penny-Whistle]

A bit similar to Lurker there though slightly different. My world's pantheon consists of three powers. The God of Light, Nature, and Evil. The Good church has a schism going within it and an active 'civil war' if you will wherein the zealots are at war with those that tacitly acknowledge the existence of the power of Nature. Of course the angels are involved being the physical manifestation of Light's powers, vs the Aspects of nature (giant animals or elementals), vs the demons (slaughter happy) and devils (corrupters and reps of Evil).

I've ran various pantheons I've made up over the decades and played under others. I think the most effective ones are those that tend to reflect personal beliefs or familiar history. Not to say that those are the only way to run them just that in my experience those types seem to be the easiest to run, especially if off the cuff.

If I understand correctly it sounds like the Good pantheon/community is grappling with understanding what 'good' is and where the boundaries begin and end. (As a side note I can see that ambivalence as a reflection of current events as people in the global north have begun to consider what it means to be an empire. Probably not what you intended but that is how it feels to me.)

At first reading it seems like those forces and conflicts must be colossal but perhaps they wouldn't have to be. I wonder what it looks like in your game. Do the angels act as guides? Are the forces there mostly as a battery of energy for the players? Or do the supernatural elements get directly involved? Neat stuff.

[Go0gleplex]

The Gods don't intervene directly with the mortal plane lest they sneeze and literally blow it all away. Angels/Aspects/Devils act as their direct representatives and carry messages, provide advice/wisdom, and recruit mortals to accomplish their master/mistress' goals. For Aspects, think along the lines of Princess Mononoke or Spice and Wolf (Holo). Demons are the warped souls of the fallen and are used as cannon fodder assassins by the devils. No two are the same (chaos beasts from warhammer is a good analogy).

The God of Light is Lawful Good, but since churches are mortal things...those in charge are fallible. Or in this case...the Westboro Baptists are in charge with the more moderates being the minority. This minority works more for good than law and sees the main church as having lost its way while the main church sees their failure to adhere to heaven's law as heresy, hence the schism and conflict. Those that follow nature are treated more like misguided and intellectually challenged children by the main church and tacitly as equals by the minority. Both sides of the schism will drop their issues with each other temporarily when faced with those from Evil however. Nature concentrates more on the balance and continuation of the cycle of life, stepping in wherever her brothers get carried away. And of course the Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends.

[Lurker]

The Gods don't intervene directly with the mortal plane lest they sneeze and literally blow it all away. Angels/Aspects/Devils act as their direct representatives and carry messages, provide advice/wisdom, and recruit mortals to accomplish their master/mistress' goals. For Aspects, think along the lines of Princess Mononoke or Spice and Wolf (Holo). Demons are the warped souls of the fallen and are used as cannon fodder assassins by the devils. No two are the same (chaos beasts from warhammer is a good analogy).

The God of Light is Lawful Good, but since churches are mortal things...those in charge are fallible. Or in this case...the Westboro Baptists are in charge with the more moderates being the minority. This minority works more for good than law and sees the main church as having lost its way while the main church sees their failure to adhere to heaven's law as heresy, hence the schism and conflict. Those that follow nature are treated more like misguided and intellectually challenged children by the main church and tacitly as equals by the minority. Both sides of the schism will drop their issues with each other temporarily when faced with those from Evil however. Nature concentrates more on the balance and continuation of the cycle of life, stepping in wherever her brothers get carried away. And of course the Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends.

Good stuff!

As a history side bar. I've recently been pulled into wanting to study about the process of the reformation and all the 'wars of religion' associated (or caused by) it.

I always 'knew' how screwed up things were them. But, for some reason the lectures I've recently heard really brought it home for me. Catholic France hating Catholic Spain enough to support various protestant forces. Calvinists standing by while Catholic Spain attacks Lutheran countries (or it may be Lutherans standing by when Calvinists are attacked). Catholics Spain's encouraging Muslim Turks to attack both Protestants (Calvin and Lutheran countries) (Poland may have been catholic so throw in Protestants standing by when Catholics were fighting Turks to. I may be off on that though). Then Catholic France encouraging Turks and Moroccans to raid Spain & Italy.

It can get even more murky with England and Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, & Elizabeth - Eye opener on one day 12 people were killed by decree from the king 6 Catholics and 6 Protestants ... Talk about everyone's head possibly being on the chopping block depending on the whim of the king)

As a man of faith it saddens me to know that is part of my faiths history.

However, it is something that so few know or explore. Even in a fantasy setting. Too often good is portrayed as sickingly sweet good with no substance, or inept, or completely corrupt (so it shouldn't count as 'good' but I'll run with it).

Then evil is portrayed as mindless or something to be ... (well not honored I don't know the right word though) ...

Morals in short are a thin comic character of life.

I like how you have it laid out especially the rabid element of the church being in charge - historic precidents for that exist, and the examples of how bad it gets - Sovonarola in Florence comes to mind. Also, your "Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends"

I wonder, can you have a reformation (well I guess counter reformation as you already have a splinter element that isn't as rabid as the mother church) going on. Sort of a Post Trentine movement to moderate the excess of the church ... Sorry slipping into history guy mode ... your world I shouldn't meddle ...

Oh yeah, I'll have to remember your statement on why the powers don't directly intervene and the sneeze. I like that example!

[Go0gleplex]

I won't get into a lot of religious discussion. But I grew up with a parent that went rabid religious fanatic for almost a decade before waking up. Being the questioning sort and a lover of mythology growing up I've always wondered if the Greek Gods and all that were actually angels or nephilm and mistaken as gods. Having seen UFOs in close proximity (150' on one instance), ghosts, and other unexplainable things, as well as the hypocrisy of various religions I truly believe nothing is impossible to exist. Improbable at times, but not impossible. The schism in the main church reflects those experiences of mine. My own religious views are a lot more tolerant and respectful of the world around, thus the minority of the church and Nature itself being a power. Being an abuse survivor, well, as the well known quote goes "who knows what evil lurks within the heart of men?" nuff said. And don't be mistaken. While Evil is there to rip stuff asunder, they are neither mindless (well, unless it's a demon) or stupid. Devils are scheming bastards and their tools tend to be power hungry, scheming, and treacherous sorts themselves. EVIL! The Amway of the fantasy world...

and thank you for the compliments.

[Penny-Whistle]

The Gods don't intervene directly with the mortal plane lest they sneeze and literally blow it all away. Angels/Aspects/Devils act as their direct representatives and carry messages, provide advice/wisdom, and recruit mortals to accomplish their master/mistress' goals. For Aspects, think along the lines of Princess Mononoke or Spice and Wolf (Holo). Demons are the warped souls of the fallen and are used as cannon fodder assassins by the devils. No two are the same (chaos beasts from warhammer is a good analogy).

The God of Light is Lawful Good, but since churches are mortal things...those in charge are fallible. Or in this case...the Westboro Baptists are in charge with the more moderates being the minority. This minority works more for good than law and sees the main church as having lost its way while the main church sees their failure to adhere to heaven's law as heresy, hence the schism and conflict. Those that follow nature are treated more like misguided and intellectually challenged children by the main church and tacitly as equals by the minority. Both sides of the schism will drop their issues with each other temporarily when faced with those from Evil however. Nature concentrates more on the balance and continuation of the cycle of life, stepping in wherever her brothers get carried away. And of course the Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends.

You have described these forces so clearly! hahaha Westboro Baptists. Your gods truly are powerful if they can blow us away with a sneeze. This idea reminds me of Shiva. When he closes his eyes we are are dissolved into nothing. Or maybe something like Terry Pratchett's gods rolling the dice.

[Penny-Whistle]

The Gods don't intervene directly with the mortal plane lest they sneeze and literally blow it all away. Angels/Aspects/Devils act as their direct representatives and carry messages, provide advice/wisdom, and recruit mortals to accomplish their master/mistress' goals. For Aspects, think along the lines of Princess Mononoke or Spice and Wolf (Holo). Demons are the warped souls of the fallen and are used as cannon fodder assassins by the devils. No two are the same (chaos beasts from warhammer is a good analogy).

The God of Light is Lawful Good, but since churches are mortal things...those in charge are fallible. Or in this case...the Westboro Baptists are in charge with the more moderates being the minority. This minority works more for good than law and sees the main church as having lost its way while the main church sees their failure to adhere to heaven's law as heresy, hence the schism and conflict. Those that follow nature are treated more like misguided and intellectually challenged children by the main church and tacitly as equals by the minority. Both sides of the schism will drop their issues with each other temporarily when faced with those from Evil however. Nature concentrates more on the balance and continuation of the cycle of life, stepping in wherever her brothers get carried away. And of course the Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends.

Good stuff!

As a history side bar. I've recently been pulled into wanting to study about the process of the reformation and all the 'wars of religion' associated (or caused by) it.

I always 'knew' how screwed up things were them. But, for some reason the lectures I've recently heard really brought it home for me. Catholic France hating Catholic Spain enough to support various protestant forces. Calvinists standing by while Catholic Spain attacks Lutheran countries (or it may be Lutherans standing by when Calvinists are attacked). Catholics Spain's encouraging Muslim Turks to attack both Protestants (Calvin and Lutheran countries) (Poland may have been catholic so throw in Protestants standing by when Catholics were fighting Turks to. I may be off on that though). Then Catholic France encouraging Turks and Moroccans to raid Spain & Italy.

It can get even more murky with England and Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, & Elizabeth - Eye opener on one day 12 people were killed by decree from the king 6 Catholics and 6 Protestants ... Talk about everyone's head possibly being on the chopping block depending on the whim of the king)

As a man of faith it saddens me to know that is part of my faiths history.

However, it is something that so few know or explore. Even in a fantasy setting. Too often good is portrayed as sickingly sweet good with no substance, or inept, or completely corrupt (so it shouldn't count as 'good' but I'll run with it).

Then evil is portrayed as mindless or something to be ... (well not honored I don't know the right word though) ...

Morals in short are a thin comic character of life.

I like how you have it laid out especially the rabid element of the church being in charge - historic precidents for that exist, and the examples of how bad it gets - Sovonarola in Florence comes to mind. Also, your "Evil guy is there to just tear it all down and spoil things due to spite and twist whatever is left over to his own ends"

I wonder, can you have a reformation (well I guess counter reformation as you already have a splinter element that isn't as rabid as the mother church) going on. Sort of a Post Trentine movement to moderate the excess of the church ... Sorry slipping into history guy mode ... your world I shouldn't meddle ...

Oh yeah, I'll have to remember your statement on why the powers don't directly intervene and the sneeze. I like that example!

Everything you said is so interesting I wasn't sure where to begin a reply. I was really struck with your wondering about evil. "Then evil is portrayed as mindless or something to be ... (well not honored I don't know the right word though) ... "

When I think of Christianity and the forces of good and evil (from a human perspective) I can't help but recall the Book of Job and the figure of Satan. Throughout the bible the word 'satan' is usually a kind of an adjective. Rather than the name of an angel, it describes people and a state of being -- the 'adversarial' one. Similarly in Islam 'shaitan' means 'distant or astray.' But in Job, Satan is personified. God and Satan work hand in hand to bring calamity to a particular person. Job was like a character to be manipulated on a game board.

[Penny-Whistle]

I won't get into a lot of religious discussion. But I grew up with a parent that went rabid religious fanatic for almost a decade before waking up. Being the questioning sort and a lover of mythology growing up I've always wondered if the Greek Gods and all that were actually angels or nephilm and mistaken as gods. Having seen UFOs in close proximity (150' on one instance), ghosts, and other unexplainable things, as well as the hypocrisy of various religions I truly believe nothing is impossible to exist. Improbable at times, but not impossible. The schism in the main church reflects those experiences of mine. My own religious views are a lot more tolerant and respectful of the world around, thus the minority of the church and Nature itself being a power. Being an abuse survivor, well, as the well known quote goes "who knows what evil lurks within the heart of men?" nuff said. And don't be mistaken. While Evil is there to rip stuff asunder, they are neither mindless (well, unless it's a demon) or stupid. Devils are scheming bastards and their tools tend to be power hungry, scheming, and treacherous sorts themselves. EVIL! The Amway of the fantasy world...

and thank you for the compliments.

I am so sorry to hear of your experience. When it comes to evil we don't need any supernatural agents; people are capable of terrible things. And I agree. Evil so often is not mindless but hungry and scheming. I liked your word hungry as a description very much because I think that really gets to the heart of it -- reflecting the inner emptiness of people who prey on others and the world they try to leave behind.

[Treebore]

I saw the movie "The Last Witch Hunter" yesterday, so many ideas for a world where Witches are a major power... which brings in the idea of a evil that is endlessly ravenous...