Spellcaster as a service

[Greyblade]

Hey guys,

Quick question: where can I find rules regarding the hire of a spellcaster/cleric, to cast a specific spell?

Say the group wants a cleric to cast "Remove Disease" on one of them, how much would that cost? They have no specific affiliations to a religion/church, so no discount price I'd say.

3rd edition & co had such rules/prices under equipment, but can't find it in C&C

Thanks all!

[Arduin]

There are no such rules in C&C per se. As each game world is different they would be pretty useless in reality as it would be based on supply & demand. You can look at cost of magic item construction to get a baseline though.

[Itlas]

3rd edition & co had such rules/prices under equipment, but can't find it in C&C

Then use those rules,where's the problems?gold pieces are gold pieces with every set of rules

[Go0gleplex]

The only rule I remember seeing was 100 gp X level of the spell being cast. But that never set well with me. If clerics are there to help minister to the common folks, 100 gp would never be earned in their lifetime for a simple cure light wounds or what. Granted, the economy differs world to world and all, especially if you use a silver standard vs a gold standard. But what I've sort of adopted is 10(base coin type) x caster level x spell level. So a 1st level caster doing a first level spell = 10 gp/sp. A 5th level caster doing a third level spell would cost 150 gp. My reasoning is that this accounts for the greater success (or increased effect) rate of the more powerful caster vs the lower one and provides a logical explanation for temple hierarchy or such.

[Treebore]

The CKG has a LOT of the same rules as the old 1E DMG, and I am pretty sure I saw rules for this as well.

[Omote]

I don't have the book on hand, but I also think the CKG has rules or guidelines regarding this topic.

~O

[Arduin]

The CKG has a LOT of the same rules as the old 1E DMG, and I am pretty sure I saw rules for this as well.

There are rules & a table for casters buying a spell from NPC casters but I haven't found one for cost of casting a spell...

[Arduin]

If clerics are there to help minister to the common folks, 100 gp would never be earned in their lifetime for a simple cure light wounds or what.

Clerics, in the C&C paradigm, don't minister to the masses via spell casting.

Also contrary to common belief, changing coinage type doesn't change the total wealth level. Thus, it would cost the same amount of personal wealth to get a spell no matter the metal used as coin base. This is the same mechanism as fiat currency. Printing more money doesn't change someones wealth. It simply takes more to buy something now. Same with debasing metal coinage... (If it takes a smith 6 months work to earn enough for a 1st level spell, it will be the same no matter the currency )

[Go0gleplex]

If clerics are there to help minister to the common folks, 100 gp would never be earned in their lifetime for a simple cure light wounds or what.

Clerics, in the C&C paradigm, don't minister to the masses via spell casting.

That's your world. lol

Clerics have always existed to help the common folk and poor as part of the established regional religion for as long as I have played D&D/C&C. (which is coming up on 40 yrs soon...eeek!) Several articles in Dragon mag have also alluded to this back in the mid to late 80's. And I didn't say the ministered via spell casting. However they are one of the most visible resources in settlements...though I do also know that herb witches and apothecaries carry on a good business with them as well.

As to the comment on coinage. You really need to read Spice and Wolf. And before you scoff at this, understand that it is such a comprehensive view of economics at a medieval level it is used as teaching material by several university classes worldwide. Changing the coinage DOES change the level of wealth. But it isn't solely because of the base material of the coinage, which is related both to the purity of the material as to economic power of the country that minted said coins. Both are inter-related. The purer the metal of the coin the more valuable obviously, but the stability and political power of the minting country also factors in...and then you get sharping involved and counterfeiting...it is a totally wild ride. And then there is how to make a profit from devaluing your own country's coinage...

[Arduin]

That's your world. lol

Do you understand what, "in the C&C paradigm" means?

[Go0gleplex]

That's your world. lol

Do you understand what, "in the C&C paradigm" means?

Do you understand that I don't care what it means?

[Arduin]

That's your world. lol

Do you understand what, "in the C&C paradigm" means?

Do you understand that I don't care what it means?

I understand now that you were not able to comprehend the sentence.

[Go0gleplex]

That's your world. lol

Do you understand what, "in the C&C paradigm" means?

Do you understand that I don't care what it means?

I understand now that you were not able to comprehend the sentence.

I understood the sentence just fine. But not everyone plays the rules or the settings the same way. So saying the paradigm is this is essentially meaningless to anyone who doesn't consider the paradigm the end all reasoning. Obviously you didn't understand my initial response which clearly indicates that clerics in MY world are not bound by that social class rigidity and are bound by the Gods will to help EVERYONE who come to them, not just adventurers. I'm sorry if my humorous snarks are too obtuse for your overly superior intellect. Sheesh!

[Tadhg]

That's your world. lol

Do you understand what, "in the C&C paradigm" means?

Do you understand that I don't care what it means?

I understand now that you were not able to comprehend the sentence.

I understood the sentence just fine. But not everyone plays the rules or the settings the same way. So saying the paradigm is this is essentially meaningless to anyone who doesn't consider the paradigm the end all reasoning. Obviously you didn't understand my initial response which clearly indicates that clerics in MY world are not bound by that social class rigidity and are bound by the Gods will to help EVERYONE who come to them, not just adventurers. I'm sorry if my humorous snarks are too obtuse for your overly superior intellect. Sheesh!

+1

Well said!

[Lurker]

... You really need to read Spice and Wolf. And before you scoff at this, understand that it is such a comprehensive view of economics at a medieval level it is used as teaching material by several university classes worldwide. ...

I've never seen/heard of that. Where can I find it ?

I do agree with clerics ministering to the common masses. That said, I do see where some would charge more for their services than what the common man could afford ( read our historic mindset that led to the church selling indulgences)

[Go0gleplex]

... You really need to read Spice and Wolf. And before you scoff at this, understand that it is such a comprehensive view of economics at a medieval level it is used as teaching material by several university classes worldwide. ...

I've never seen/heard of that. Where can I find it ?

I do agree with clerics ministering to the common masses. That said, I do see where some would charge more for their services than what the common man could afford ( read our historic mindset that led to the church selling indulgences)

You can find it at Amazon mate. It's a Light Novel from Japan and they've only got the first 15 books out so far. 16 is due in Dec....and the final around Mar or April I believe. There is also two seasons of the anime out which I recommend watching if you just want to get a feel for things. The first season is better than the second in my opinion however. The latest book deals with the first half of how a mining company is using coinage to basically fight a war of independence. Without bloodshed or armies (at least so far. Other shoe may drop in the next book.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Ztnt5ej20

[Arduin]

You really need to read Spice and Wolf.

No. I aced econ. YOU need to take econ at a reputable University.

[Go0gleplex]

You really need to read Spice and Wolf.

No. I aced econ. YOU need to take econ at a reputable University.

Took college level economics in my high school years. Learned more in the real world. Also aced it and had the instructor joking about me becoming a graphic artist due to my graph work and associated "doodles".


Whatever. I'm done.

[Omote]

If clerics are there to help minister to the common folks, 100 gp would never be earned in their lifetime for a simple cure light wounds or what.

Clerics, in the C&C paradigm, don't minister to the masses via spell casting.

That's your world. lol

To totally change the point of this thread, clerics in my current game in fact do have to minister to the masses (in a sense) via spell casting. During the course of an adventure, and with most groups, the cleric does very little ministering, preaching, or proving the existence and might of his God to the masses. In some fantasy RPG paradigms, the power of the God is directly attributable to the amount of people whom revere and worship that deity. The less true believers, the less powerful the god. I follow this paradigm. In my games, a cleric IS the face of Gods personified. The cleric is granted his powers due to his unshakable faith in his deity. Again, most gaming groups do not have their cleric do anything specific to earn their spell casting/supernatural powers. Most groups simply have the cleric pray in the morning, or eradicate a few undead to prove his worth to the God. Depending on how you play the game, I have my clerics preach, administer, and cast spells in a religious tug-of-war for the faith of the masses. In effect, if the cleric doesn't perform a ritual called the Foundation Tenet and attempt to bring some of the masses over to his God, he begins to lose his spells, and/or simply doesn't have access to certain levels of spell casting. Many groups hand wave such notions, I do not. In the C&C game, the cleric class can perform miracles of healing that are not simply available to other classes. Think about how much that means to the masses of a pseudo-medieval setting. The cleric may be a very powerful force in the area. His God knows this, and in order for his God to be all that he can be, the cleric must bring more subjects to the faith.

Pray, dedicate, and show your love of your God or no spells for you!

~O

[Captain_K]

Spell casting and clerics and service etc..

Greyblade, Charge as you believe is reasonable. Price as the market can bare? Make them do work for the spells, etc. You know, "You get me the teeth of a hydra and I'll regrow you're fighter's arm." Paying for spells you cannot cast or spells to fill the spell books should be within the reach of the PC... but only at the price that keeps your game in balance and is appropriate for your world and your game and your feelings. As you can see from the above, EVERYONE has one or two opinions on this topics and some are pretty darn hard about their rules. So do with it as you will.

That said folks, I'd like to add a fun bit on this topic. I rarely allow folks to buy spells, its more a barter system for me. You want something, you got to pay in special "coin". Same for selling spells, PCs can sell magic for coin if they need coin or they could sell services to local rich &/or powerful folks for trade or favors in kind. After all, when heroes save the town, the reward is usually something tangible. Even if it is a symbolic key to the town.

Clerics and druids helping... I recently had my group NPC, which it was my turn to play the Cleric with my normal PC, do some active recruiting to his faith. The fighter PC lost his sword, I gave him a blessed club until we found a new sword. Then when he was bleeding out I saved his life and asked if he'd like to convert since he had no ties to any religion anyway. The NPC explain the benefits of being in the fold, first name basis with the God of the Dead Arawan.. "Hey, You're going there anyway, wouldn't you like to be welcomed when you arrive after years of service?" PLUS first in line to healing spells over non-members. So how you play your Cleric may be up to you, but saving lives and helping others should be part of your PC, your play and your idea of your faith as you play it.

I would think Druids to the same kind of thing, unasked for natural stuff.. the wood, creatures, etc. Kind of in the job description.

[Lurker]

O,

I'm with you on that.

Back before I stopped running games I kicked around the idea that clerics would get exp for doing that kind of stuff (taken from one of the OE classes). Of course, it wouldn't be a huge amount, but every little bit helps especially at lower levels ...

Unfortunately, I never got to play test it to see how it worked ...

[Go0gleplex]

Even if they don't get xp, the clerics can gain prestige which in the right circles can be almost as valuable as xp or gold. One group I ran the Paladin and Cleric convinced the rest of the party to use part of their treasure to found and operate several orphanages in a couple major cities they frequented. Funny, a lot of local merchants suddenly had spot sales on things whenever they were out buying stuff.

[Treebore]

Back to the OP topic, if you have access to it, the 1E DMG definitely has guidelines. I can't check my CKG until I arrive home tomorrow afternoon, been on the road for over three weeks now.

[ssfsx17]

The CKG section on "Adherents" shows guidelines for hiring them to make items. Casting single spells as a service would presumably be half that cost.

It also has guidelines for many types of henchmen, including start-up cost and salary per month, with all kinds of modifiers depending on how you negotiate their payment.

I agree with other comments that you can also use the cost of buying a single scroll/potion of a spell from the M&T, and reduce it by 25% to 50% depending on circumstances.

And in the "C&C Paradigm," clerics act according their alignment and patron deities, which oftentimes does involve helping people for free and/or for the greater good. In older times, there were rules for donating money to get experience points.

[Greyblade]

Great insight & ideas from you all guys, much appreciated.

I'll check the CKG and other sources and make up my mind. I'm sure the players will give me some ideas in play as well.

Take care & have a nice weekend all

[koralas]

This is the same mechanism as fiat currency. Printing more money doesn't change someones wealth. It simply takes more to buy something now. Same with debasing metal coinage... (If it takes a smith 6 months work to earn enough for a 1st level spell, it will be the same no matter the currency )

Uhm, there is a problem with this statement...

With fiat money the value is based solely on the faith in the issuer of said currency since there is no physical commodity backing it. So, printing more money does change the wealth of a person holding it as it dilutes the value of the currency being held. For example, say you can buy something today for $1, and tomorrow the government prints a huge amount of money, that $1 may now only be worth $0.75. Someone wanting to maintain the relative value of their product might now charge $1.25. Thus my stockpile of $1000 has a relative worth of only $750, and has even less purchasing power if merchants raise the cost of goods to maintain their relative value against other currencies. Worse the complete collapse of the issuer of the currency means my $1000 is now worth $0. The reverse can be true as well. This can be seen in the real world with the worlds largest retailer freely, and unilaterally, paying less total Dollars on invoices and counting them as being paid in full when the Dollar increases in value, though of course they don't adjust when the Dollar goes down in value.

Another perfect example of the problems with fiat money can be seen through a study of the Confederate States of America currency.

Currency based on a physical commodity is much more stable, though if there is a sudden influx of the commodity, it will dilute the value of the commodity, and therefore the actual wealth of the person is likewise decreased. The swings are much less volatile than with fiat money, but are still affected by the market value. The biggest difference is that any currency based on that commodity is affected so you do not have the same issue with the relative values as you do with fiat money. However, currencies based on other commodities will have their relative values adjusted.

A good example is Ancient Egypt. In the Old Kingdom, silver was rare and of more value than gold, of which they had great supplies, and they also had good supplies of electrum (a natural alloy of gold and silver) from Nubia and the eastern mountains. Over time, leading into the Middle Kingdom, silver became more common and eventually held less intrinsic value than did gold. During the New Kingdom, there was a steady stream of silver coming in to Egypt. Psusennes I, a Pharaoh of the 21st Dynasty was buried in an "inner coffin" made of silver, inlaid with gold. Shensonq, II a Pharaoh of the 22nd Dynasty, was entombed in a sarcophagus made of solid silver.

Wealth is not simply how much money you have stockpiled, but takes into account the actual value of that money. For example I can have $1000 Canadian and $1000 USA and both have the same size stockpile, however, the person holding the Canadian dollar has less wealth since the value of that Canadian Dollar is (as of this posting) 1:0.76, meaning a Canadian dollar is worth 76 cents USA. The same could be said for different physical currencies, unless they all use the same purity and weight for their coins.

Now on to the comment about the smith working 6 months to get a first level spell taking 6 months regardless of the currency is not really correct. Since during that 6 months, fluctuations in the relative value of the currencies may increase the value of the first X months of money saved, perhaps shaving (or adding) a few weeks, a month, or in extreme cases more or less. So if the currency in which the smith is getting paid increases in value over the period of time required to save it, then it will take less time to be able to pay for the spell. The reverse is true, if the value decreases, additional time will be required to stockpile enough money to pay for the spell.