Spicing up classes

[jdizzy001]

I am curious, what do you all do to make classes unique? For example, if my crew includes two rangers, what options do we have to make them unique so we the players don't feel like they are running clones in game?

This is what I have come up with so far:
-Class limitations - Each class can only be selected once by the group. Once someone has chosen to play as a barbarian, no one else can select the barbarian as their class.
-RP- It is up to the players to make their character unique
-Class and a half/multiclass - this will allow the players to make their characters very unique but I wouldn't want to throw this at a new/young player as it can become confusing to run two classes at once.
-Advantages- The use of advantages can do a lot to individualize a character, but at times when I break out advantages I feel like I am playing DnD 3e. One of my favorite things about CnC is that RAW there are *no* advantages. A simple fix to this is to allow characters to select a very limited number of advantages at character creation (for example: two). The idea being it helps define the character's fighting style or mannerisms without the fear of a munchkin coming along and creating power combos.

What are some things you do to help players feel like they aren't running mirrors of each other?

[Arduin]

I am curious, what do you all do to make classes unique? For example, if my crew includes two rangers, what options do we have to make them unique so we the players don't feel like they are running clones in game?

My players like to create the personalities pretty fully without regard to optimizing. That keeps even 2 of the same classes from being clones. Other than stating what classes (in total) are available to play, I take "Church & State" attitude towards the GM & Player hats.

[Rigon]

It's up to the players to make their characters different. As the Ck, I have enough to worry about running the game to worry about if the players can't differentiate their characters.

R-

[Penny-Whistle]

Funny you'd ask that. I was just thinking about how Rhuvein's game (until recently) had three clerics in the party and that seemed to work really well. I don't feel we were clones of each other. We came from different races and worshipped different gods so that created some differences in flavour, motivation and priorities. Even game play. One of the dwarf clerics was quite pious and a bit obsessed with collecting gold for his god. (Evangelizing and passing the hat ALL the time hahaha just kidding) But he was pretty much the guy with the melee weapon standing in the front line. The other cleric was a solemn guy but under that quiet exterior was a lot of energy; he loved casting heavy duty powerful spells. Mine is an old granny who just wants to keep everyone safe and healthy, especially since her thieving grandson has a habit of taking big risks. So she has bandages, a first aid kit and stocks up on healing spells. She likes to pour tea and pass out cookies to settle everyone down when they are done fighting.

I think the personalities of the players/characters makes clone play unlikely.

[Go0gleplex]

It's up to the players to make their characters different. As the Ck, I have enough to worry about running the game to worry about if the players can't differentiate their characters.

R-

+1 this.

[Treebore]

I think the personalities of the players/characters makes clone play unlikely.

Exactly. Mechanically they can chose different Primes, but Rangers ARE Rangers, they are supposed to both be good at the same things. Saying characters of the same class are clones are like saying any two people with the same set of job skills are clones.

[serleran]

We actually don't use the classes. I ask players what they want to play and craft a "class" around that.

Granted, that's not for everyone.

If I were to use the classes, I would still ask the player how they envision it. Maybe I change a magic-user to using different material components, like gem stones, or give them the power to scribe scrolls at 1st level.

[Captain_K]

I think the base classes are pretty good starts. Test your theory. Play a game with two of each base class and let the players play them how they want them and rate how "clone like" they are. Its a totally testable concern.

But I like a mix of classes and races in a group, but we just ran a group that was very fighter heavy and that worked too, once I threw in one cleric to keep them alive at times.

[Lurker]

I think the personalities of the players/characters makes clone play unlikely.

Exactly. Mechanically they can chose different Primes, but Rangers ARE Rangers, they are supposed to both be good at the same things. Saying characters of the same class are clones are like saying any two people with the same set of job skills are clones.

I will echo that. Personality (and factors of role playing) will keep them from being carbon copies. Also, the primes and other mechanics will to.

Yes 2 characters of the same class will be similar, but there will be variations and divergences to.

However, if you are overly worried about it, you can encourage the role playing (and highlight the differences) aspects by giving extra exp for good role playing of the non-mechanics / crunch elements of the game. that will encourage both to develop the personality of the character instead of making it just numbers on a paper and random dice rolls.

[Itlas]

It's up to the players to make their characters different. As the Ck, I have enough to worry about running the game to worry about if the players can't differentiate their characters.

R-

Agree,when I played D&D by Mentzer with only 4 classes + 3 demihuman classes our characters were very different,it's not the rules that make a character unique,roleplaying does.


Anyway,if you and your players wants to powerplay and have different skills and powers I can suggest 2 options.

You can use the Ranger,Paladin and Bard versions from AD&D,so your players can choose between C&C fighting version and AD&D magic user version.

OR

Adapt some Prestige Classes from D20 products and make them paths a character can choose from level 11 to 20.

I suggest:

• Remove requisites and just make a certain prestige class available for a single class from level 11
  Don't use prestige classes already covered by core classes (like the Assassin)
  Give racial prestige classes availabe for a certain race only
  Use only prestige classes of 10 levels.
  Keep the hit points of the core class of a character
  Keep the experience points of the core class for the count of gaining a level,or just add more experience points to gain if you think the prestige classes would be too much powerful

This idea came in my mind thinking about the old D&D by Metzer when after level 10 a cleric can choose to be druid and a warrior can choose to be knight.

[pawndream]

I don't do anything mechanically to differentiate between players who happen to choose the same race/class combos. That's up to them to bring a personality to the table.

My current gaming group consists of two human paladins (one devoted to a Sun God, the other to a Dragon God), a gnome druid, a gnome wizard and a half-elf ranger.

The paladins are different because they are played differently. They might have the same abilities, but their approach and personality is entirely different.

[Captain_K]

I cannot believe I forgot my own experiment which stems from the Father of Invention.. you guys know that one right? Well, if not, it goes like this, "If Necessity is the Mother of Invention, then Laziness is the Father!"

As noted above I had my group roll up second characters, nearly all picked fighter types. Not a cleric, druid, thief or mage between them. Anyway, I told them I would create the Cleric as an NPC for anyone to play as the group NPC, I the CK could play it, or guests could play it. All those things have happened, but as the story went I decided I was going to make two NPCs from the one I rolled up with the group. Each totally identical, same Ranger/Cleric, 1/2 elf, same scores EXCEPT swap STR and DEX. One was a female Archer Priestess of the old DnD Elven Hunting God Solonor Thelandira. She was the "half breed" in the elven community, first ever allowed into that elven sect, unsure of her worth and acceptance, always working to fully accepted by the Elves. Kind and sort of shy. Flip that same coin over and on the other side is the male face of Death. Male Priest of Celtic Arawan, dark and spooky, wielding a Crow's Beak (maul or war mattock, you know what Arduin's Avatar is holding, in fact, that avatar in a black cloak, slightly lighter armor, and a crow perched on each shoulder does a pretty good job of looking like this priest).

The two NPCs are so different. Even the players have no idea (well had) no idea how close they are. The group liked the lady, until she died, was conscripted by Arawan, and dramatically replaced with the dark and spooky priest. Heck, several of the PCs are seriously afraid and untrusting of this Priest... just how I want it.

Anyway, that is the closest example I have for "Just play them how you want, add your own flavor, don't worry about the "rules" so much, and you can have all sorts of variety". But at the same time I see the value in having the rules and having the options. These two priests are great fun, capable, and multi-class to get the utility I wanted out of the classes in the PH.

I think with imagination, some CK tweaking the 12 core classes goes a long way, adding tons more is possible, but it seems kind of 3.5 ish and featish, etc. ALL OK, just kind of different. I think the CKG has ideas to help with that.

NOW, if you got idea, you got rules, you got new classes, PLEASE write them up and get them to TREE for the Doomsday... I feel like I've said this before. I feel like the kid on the corner selling papers.. but I have got any to sell yet. Please help me.... sell my papers ;}

[jdizzy001]

Good point. I get very caught up in archetypes. RP is going to have to take a front seat when people field the same class.

[Ancalagon]

I am curious, what do you all do to make classes unique? For example, if my crew includes two rangers, what options do we have to make them unique so we the players don't feel like they are running clones in game? <snip>

The players themselves will think, and view things, differently and run their characters accordingly. You don't need rules and rules variants to substitute for the creativity each player should bring to the game.

[Utgardloki]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the impact of choosing different attributes to be primary. For example, one Barbarian might have Strength and Dexterity as Primary attributes, and be a formidable brute in combat. Another might have Intelligence and Wisdom as primary attributes, and be a wily survivor in the wilderness. Their experiences in adventure will be quite different.

[jdizzy001]

Capt K mentioned it. But yes, primes would be the most CnC definitive way to accomplish it.

[Arduin]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the impact of choosing different attributes to be primary.

Just assumed for myself as that is part of char gen.

[Utgardloki]

I think Pathfinder has gotten too complex for its own good, but judicious use of ideas in the Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide could help to spice up a C&C campaign.

For example, bards and wizards could have masterworks which are unique to those individuals.

The archetype concept, applied to a simpler game like C&C, could also be a good way to spice up classes. I'd probably require special training, for example, a character who wants to use a Witchdoctor archetype would have to be trained by a witchdoctor, etc. But what the archetype does is essentially substitute some level abilities for others.

Prestige classes have a long pedigree in D&D, going back to the ninja, thief-acrobat, and bard described in the 1st edition ruleset. Since PCs don't have skills or feats, the qualification could simply by that they reach certain levels in a class and then can have to opportunity to specialize.

I think it also might be possible to offer add-ons for an experience cost. For example, in my 3rd edition D&D Audor campaign, there was a type of character called Judges, which were modeled as a prestige class. But for C&C, it could be an add-on: PCs who qualify learn to cast spells from the Judges rulebook (Judges were secondary spellcasters like paladins or rangers, with spells level 0-5 and typically would be divination spells or spells like "Judges Mark"). It would cost an extra 10% xp per level to keep up their spell training.

[serleran]

Primes have little to do with class, other than the one mandatory selection. Many rule that, regardless of Prime choice, class abilities are always considered Prime... which greatly weakens the choice but also helps to avoid the pastry assembly line.

Primes are a matter of character, though.

So, really, from my PoV, Prime is a non-factor for making classes more interesting. What does make them exciting is what they can do.... not necessarily how easily.

[Utgardloki]

I do think there should be some way to add to a character's class abilities in C&C. Some ideas I have for my own campaign:

1. Special training. Player spends x experience points (probably adjusted by level, so higher level characters have to spend more xp than lower level characters. As a result, the character gets some sort of advantage such as using some skill, speaking some language, or perhaps they've even learned to cast a spell once a day.

2. Practice. I'm thinking of adapting something like the way in Runequest or Call of Cthulhu, you can get better at doing something by doing it. For example, if a character successfully sneaks past a guard or climbs a cliff, the player could roll for a chance to give the character a +1 experience bonus for that kind of task in the future. For C&C, I'd probably limit this bonus to 1/4th the character's experience level, round up.

[Lurker]

....

2. Practice. I'm thinking of adapting something like the way in Runequest or Call of Cthulhu, you can get better at doing something by doing it. For example, if a character successfully sneaks past a guard or climbs a cliff, the player could roll for a chance to give the character a +1 experience bonus for that kind of task in the future. For C&C, I'd probably limit this bonus to 1/4th the character's experience level, round up.

Look into Tree's house rules. He has something for that. I can't remember specifics, but it is for things like a fighter mage casting spells in chain armor. Eventually (I can't remember the mechanics of it) the character is skilled enough at it that he negates the negative.

[Utgardloki]

I like that idea, Lurker. The idea of a fully-armored fighter-mage is appealing, but difficult to do due to game balance. But if it is something where the players have to suffer for it (by trying to cast spells in armor), this might work.

On the other hand, my Atlantis campaign is kind of limited with armor, since iron hasn't been invented yet.

[Rigon]

I have a rule for casting in armor.

Arcane Casting in Armor
Multi/Dual-classed arcane caster can cast spells while wearing armor that is appropriate to their non-arcane casting class.
1. The character makes an Int check versus the AC bonus of the armor worn + the spell level of the spell being cast. Magical armor reduces this check on a 1 to 1 basis. (If the PC is wearing chain mail +1, the AC bonus is reduce by +1)
2. Multi/Dual Classed characters add in ½ (rounded down) of their non-arcane casting class and all of their arcane casting class to the check.

It allows for casting in armor, but with a chance for failure.

R-