Maneuvers in combat

[jdizzy001]

Dodge, evade, disengage... Does anyone actually use these? I was thinking of ways to spice up the Fighter and thought, what if his combat maneuvers were better? He is supposed to be the best fighter in the game. Then I started wondering, who actually uses the maneuvers?

[Treebore]

Depends on the group. The Monday group rarely does, where as the Tuesday group uses them pretty frequently. I have the entire list, with full rules, posted in the hand outs section of our VTT too.

[Captain_K]

My house rules allow the fighter to get bonuses to any combat maneuver. This allows fighters to be extra good at certain maneuvers because if anyone uses them or should use them or would be good at them then its the fighter. They basically get a +1 to one maneuver every three levels per the below.
COMBAT MANEUVER EXPERTISE: All fighters train and drill and practice many martial maneuvers and combat techniques. Only fighters can choose to improve in these maneuvers over their normal limits rather it be reducing the penalty to a called shot to the eye of a giant or increasing their armor class bonus when parrying attacks. The fighter gains a bonus of +1 in 20 to decrease a penalty, increase an armor class bonus, increase special damage, or gain an additional +1 to hit with a specific combat maneuver (See PH and CKG for a full listing of specific combat maneuvers). Each Combat Maneuver bonus occurs per the table below and represents a singular bonus to one aspect of the maneuver only. Ex.: A 3rd level fighter decides to improve his charging ability with a reduction in AC penalty from -4 to -3 with no effect to the +2 to hit associated with the Charge Combat Maneuver. A 9th level fighter decides to improve his offhand penalty from -6 to -5 when fighting with two weapons. No maneuver can be improved by more than 5% (+1) and no maneuver can receive two improvements in a row. The maneuver must employ weapons &/or Armor, as such, it does not apply to Grapple, Pummeling, or Overbearing. Note: Dodge, Disengage, Flank Attack, and Rear Attack gain special bonuses at 17th and 22nd level as the CK permits. The application of Combat Maneuver Expertise bonuses to these particular maneuvers in advance of the CKG noted levels may reduce the benefit at these levels; CK to determine details.
Permissible Combat Maneuvers: Called Shot, Charge, Close Supporting Fire, Dodge, Disengage, Disarm, Evade, Flank Attack, Offensive Focus, Parry, Push, Rear Attack, Shield Blow, Shield Wall, and Two-Weapon Fighting.

[pawndream]

Dodge, evade, disengage... Does anyone actually use these? I was thinking of ways to spice up the Fighter and thought, what if his combat maneuvers were better? He is supposed to be the best fighter in the game. Then I started wondering, who actually uses the maneuvers?

I use them if they come up during combat. More often than not though, the players come up with something that isn't neatly covered by any of the printed rules. In those cases I have them make a SIEGE check using the relevant ability score and adjudicate accordingly.

[Omote]

I use them for my enemies as needed, and the players use them as well for the most part. I try to use things like this it increase the amount of options that players have right out of the book without adding anything extra. Hey, +2 to AC vs. 3 opponents? Sounds great to me.

~O

[serleran]

I use them and more, stolen from Ninjas and Superspies.

I posted them before. Maybe I can find them again.

[Go0gleplex]

I don't really use them as presented since I expect the PCs to describe their actions of attack anyhow. Then how effective is based on situation and roll.

[AndyMac]

My players use them as appropriate. I've added some custom stuff too.

Andy

[alcyone]

I use dodge if I am getting beat on by several foes, and can't move or do anything else that is useful (wait for the cavalry).
I use evade if I am toe to toe with one foe and again, have nothing else I can do that is useful.

The main situation is either you can't move or you need to maintain position, with the promise of some tide-turning thing happening next round.
It's pretty rare that you want to do nothing on your turn. Actions are king, so these are last resort for most classes most of the time. But they do come up, when squishies get surrounded and need to bide their time for help to arrive.

Disengage comes up constantly. You want to move out of melee, trading a possible attack on yourself for a better position. Squishy ranged attackers sometimes need this when foes close to melee and there is someone bigger to draw their attacks (e.g. will get free attacks if THEY move).

Of course, it's crucial to understand how your group interprets these rules. They are pointless to try if the CK doesn't apply the rules for them to you and the monsters and they don't do what you expect.

I don't use the CKG maneuvers ever, though I witnessed Offensive Focus last night. Push looks useful, maybe Shield Blow, though it's really trading your turn for the defender possibly losing theirs, maybe not a good trade. Parry is probably better than Evade if you have an appropriate weapon. Called Shot is almost as bad as shooting in the dark, so probably only for the best equipped and talented archers, who are probably begging their CK for an Oathbow anyway (Nate: Oathbow.)

[Arduin]

Dodge, evade, disengage... Does anyone actually use these?

All but disengage which depends on relative speed of the parties and other situational specific data...

[jdizzy001]

As a devoted fighter, I have never felt the need to use these maneuvers. I'm not trying to brag, I always felt my turn could be better used by dropping the foe's HP closer to 0 which results in the fight ending sooner thus I lose less HP.

[Arduin]

As a devoted fighter, I have never felt the need to use these maneuvers. I'm not trying to brag, I always felt my turn could be better used by dropping the foe's HP closer to 0 which results in the fight ending sooner thus I lose less HP.

Sure, fighters would use many of them less than non-fighter types as many are purely defensive. Squishy types need the defensive ones more. But, you are saying that your fighter wouldn't take advantage of flank or rear position??

[alcyone]

Also, to the original point, "disengage" makes fighters more powerful, not less. Not as a maneuver for the fighter, but because it is applied to everyone. It's the only nod to "tanking" in C&C; it makes it risky to move out of melee, and encourages use of the other two maneuvers if you get stuck there and don't want to be.

Because of this, a fighter closing on a group can be "sticky" and keep them all in one place where they can be affected by spellcasters (sometimes this will affect the fighter also, but presumably they can soak some of it). Also, in games where shooting into combat is a possibility, or when it's permissible because the foes are much larger targets than the fighter, ranged combatants can pick off the melee combatants stuck to the fighter rather than getting divided and conquered by them. The risk of disengaging hastily and incurring an attack is a dangerous gamble so this clustering behavior occurs.

If you were going to replace those maneuvers for the fighter, "stickiness" maneuvers of some kind would be one thing to consider. Though in 4e D&D that was tried and I think it was clunky and unnatural compared to a simple disengage or "attack of opportunity". I'd actually put these more in the Knight's portfolio as part of their purpose is battlefield manipulation.

As an aside, I wrote a class that is sort of the opposite of the knight: the skirmisher. Where the knight tries to create order in the battlefield, the skirmisher tries to break lines and cause chaos. Hopefully it gets posted in the Society pages at some point so people can help fix it up; I think it would be fun and useful.

[Arduin]

Also, to the original point, "disengage" makes fighters more powerful, not less. Not as a maneuver for the fighter, but because it is applied to everyone.

I don't use those two maneuvers because it makes it unnaturally easy (compared to RL) to back out of a combat and would only work as written if it were a spell.

[alcyone]

Also, to the original point, "disengage" makes fighters more powerful, not less. Not as a maneuver for the fighter, but because it is applied to everyone.

I don't use those two maneuvers because it makes it unnaturally easy (compared to RL) to back out of a combat and would only work as written if it were a spell.

What do you do instead, just something situational?

[Arduin]

Also, to the original point, "disengage" makes fighters more powerful, not less. Not as a maneuver for the fighter, but because it is applied to everyone.

I don't use those two maneuvers because it makes it unnaturally easy (compared to RL) to back out of a combat and would only work as written if it were a spell.

What do you do instead, just something situational?

Completely situational. Depends on speed of opponents. Just backing away gets you nowhere if the opponent wants to follow. Turning and running gets you attacked AND the monster can chase you too. Just like RL. No different in that if you want to disengage from someone who wants to keep fighting, you either have to be faster or get someone to block for you.