My players Monk "One Punched" a Troll...

[Treebore]

The scenario was a fight ring that is ran by a scummy guy and his organization in Bards Gate. They have a Troll (the 9 HD variety) that they have muzzled so it can't bite, and bind its hands so it cannot claw, but it can still do the bear hug if it hits with both "hands". Anyways, the party's 6th Level Monk has been making a name for himself in the fighting rings, and positioned himself to fight this Troll for a purse that was now at 5,000 GP.

The Troll won initiative, and despite the Monks low AC, only hit the Monk once. Then the Monk went. Nat 20, which was fine, but he had also declared it as his Stun Attack. I rolled, got a 3. He knocks out the Troll with his first punch of the fight!

So that is where we wrapped up the session, and the player and his fellow players are celebrating such a decisive win.

[Boot Knife]

Thats awesome! Thats the stuff legends are made of. I forsee bards playing songs about this monk.

[Omote]

My monk once punched a pig right in the snout. Blam!

~O

[Go0gleplex]

So the PC gets the moniker "Troll Thumper" for his mighty blow? lol Love stuff like that when it happens.

[Captain_K]

Not to be negative, but how does the natural 20 with a stun (even with a failed save by the troll with a +3 vs CON, a prime, 9 or better was missed) take out a 9 HD troll? d8 damage, doubled, or even quadrupled, cannot take out the 9 HD troll (unless its got 9-16 hp). The stun can make him not attack, but he's not defenseless or unconscious.. just the monk gets two (or three depending on how you count the rounds) more rounds to attack without being attacked.. I think the monk gets +2 to hit for those rounds.. seems impossible to do in "one punch".. what am I missing?

Now I can see the first punch setting up the monk to win, but it should take many rounds to truly knock out the troll.

[Treebore]

Not to be negative, but how does the natural 20 with a stun (even with a failed save by the troll with a +3 vs CON, a prime, 9 or better was missed) take out a 9 HD troll? d8 damage, doubled, or even quadrupled, cannot take out the 9 HD troll (unless its got 9-16 hp). The stun can make him not attack, but he's not defenseless or unconscious.. just the monk gets two (or three depending on how you count the rounds) more rounds to attack without being attacked.. I think the monk gets +2 to hit for those rounds.. seems impossible to do in "one punch".. what am I missing?

Now I can see the first punch setting up the monk to win, but it should take many rounds to truly knock out the troll.

The Monks Stun attack is unique in C&C, it actually incapacitates the opponent for 1d4 rounds, unlike the general stun that only gives a +2 to hit the Stunned target.

[Captain_K]

STUN ATTACK: Monks can focus a hand-to-hand attack
so as to stun an opponent. The monk must declare use
of the stun attack before making the attack roll. A foe
successfully struck by the attack must make a constitution
saving throw or be stunned and unable to act for 1d4 rounds.
Those struck by a stun attack take normal unarmed attack
damage. The monk can use this ability once per round, but
but no more than once per level per day. A missed attack
counts against the monk’s daily limitation of use of the
ability. The first stun attack must be a primary attack (be
it by hand or weapon).

Straight from the PH, "stunned AND unable to act for d4 rounds". That is NOT unconscious or knocked down, or prone or anything. It is STUNNED (per the normal rules below) AND unable to "act" for d4 rounds. So I view this as "so STUNNED" its more than the normal stun penalties its also unable to "actively" act. They can still stand, still defend, still hold to their weapon and shield, etc. They cannot take new actions and still suffer the penalties of being stunned (+2 to hit). I will agree that the above definition is MINE for "unable to act", but if it were knocked out, they should have written that, if it were even knocked prone, they should have written that. All these "worse than stunned" words have game meaning and since they did not invoke them.. I'm going with the least amazing restriction on the 1st lvl Monk ability, not a KO punch to anything that fails its CON save.

SITUATIONAL COMBAT MODIFIERS
Defender prone or blind +5
Defender prone and defenseless +10
Defender at lower elevation +1
Defender stunned or cowering +2

[Treebore]

If your not able to "act", what are you able to do? Stand? Sway in place? Fall down? In C&C if you cannot do anything, cannot act, you are helpless, and your opponent gets a +10 to all attacks against you, and since you cannot act, you are completely helpless, so can be coup de graced with a full round action. In the boxing scenario above, the Troll was out for the count, so lost.

[Go0gleplex]

I totally disagree. KO is a totally possible result. But differences of opinions aside, the ending argument is that it was the CK's call and made for a more epic moment. And since the story and fun most often outweigh the rules...

[Captain_K]

I do not disagree with the "unable to act" can be taken as "no action no motion nothing".. but why not simply say, "out cold".. they do not say that.. you chatted with them more than I did.. so you know where the authors are going with this.. I bow to your experience and "insider info". But I still FEEL that since the PH has "situational combat modifiers" it should have been called a "Knock-Out Attack" and defined the failed CON save as "defender knocked out, prone, and defenseless for d4 rounds" then it would have been clean and within book combat definitions.

Personally, for a first level monk that's pretty darn powerful, not saying too powerful, but pretty amazing stuff.

[Captain_K]

If KOs is the power of the "STUN" then its poorly named. I totally agree its a reasonable, but powerful, thing and GREAT fun and it went that way for your game, so great. But I got a Monk on my squad who stuns folks and they are "dazed and confused", or "punch drunk" if you will, and cannot attack for d4 rounds and the monk simply gets free attacks with no retaliation with a +2 to hit - still a cool thing. But they are not KOed.. so if the above ruling is what the trolls intended then it should be more clearly written in combat terms, as noted in the PH, not a mixture of combat terms taking "stun" to mean "prone and helpless" because its what the dictionary definition of stun implies.

Again, each CK game will play it their way, but this could be cleared up easily with clear language that agrees with other parts in the PH.

Why do I feel we have a thread about this some place?

Where is Arduin and Traveller to chime in and really start the STUN and KOs when you need them????

But again, not trying to be a wet blanket, just NOT how I have been playing this for a few years now... plus its just so much fun to debate this stuff!
got to get another beer!

[serleran]

Similar thing happened for my wife when she had her very first C&C character, a dwarf monk, but the opponent was a drow and she got him in the groin, from behind, on a called shot... rolled a natural 20 and the Castle Keeper (not me, I was too busy playing my half-orc ranger) ruled that that would do maximum damage. She was using a hammer of thunderbolts. It got messy.

And then things took an away-from-d20 style. I almost miss the wackiness.

[T1Hound]

I like the way it went down. Pretty cool.

[Treebore]

I do not disagree with the "unable to act" can be taken as "no action no motion nothing".. but why not simply say, "out cold".. they do not say that.. you chatted with them more than I did.. so you know where the authors are going with this.. I bow to your experience and "insider info". But I still FEEL that since the PH has "situational combat modifiers" it should have been called a "Knock-Out Attack" and defined the failed CON save as "defender knocked out, prone, and defenseless for d4 rounds" then it would have been clean and within book combat definitions.

Personally, for a first level monk that's pretty darn powerful, not saying too powerful, but pretty amazing stuff.

Because they are still stunned. So I picture boxers on the mat, completely disoriented, not knowing where they are, or what is even going on, but still conscious. Either they recover in time to get up before the count is over, or stay down and get counted out. In C&C, you could even go on to drop down on them and kill them with ease, but fortunately for them, this is a boxer ring, not a battlefield.

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

Awesome!

There's something so great about that perfect nat 20.

[Traveller]

This thread was pointed out to me in PM. I was told I didn't have to "weigh in" on it, but here's my two cents.

By the book, Treebore's rationale behind allowing the troll to be knocked out in one hit makes the stun ability of the monk vastly overpowered. But you know what? I liked the end result. It's in keeping with the spirit of the game, and follows the "Rule of Cool"?

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

Stated another way, all but the most pedantic of viewers will forgive liberties with reality as long as the result is wicked sweet or awesome. This applies to the audience in general; there will naturally be a different threshold for each individual.

Everyone is going to play this game their own way. Treebore has his way, Captain_K has his, and I have mine. They're all going to be different, and best of all, they're all the right way to play, so long as fun is had by all.

[Lurker]

.... They're all going to be different, and best of all, they're all the right way to play, so long as fun is had by all.

Rgr that!

[Treebore]

This thread was pointed out to me in PM. I was told I didn't have to "weigh in" on it, but here's my two cents.

By the book, Treebore's rationale behind allowing the troll to be knocked out in one hit makes the stun ability of the monk vastly overpowered. But you know what? I liked the end result. It's in keeping with the spirit of the game, and follows the "Rule of Cool"?

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

Stated another way, all but the most pedantic of viewers will forgive liberties with reality as long as the result is wicked sweet or awesome. This applies to the audience in general; there will naturally be a different threshold for each individual.

Everyone is going to play this game their own way. Treebore has his way, Captain_K has his, and I have mine. They're all going to be different, and best of all, they're all the right way to play, so long as fun is had by all.

Well, I don't see how my interpretation gets "unable to act for 1d4 rounds" wrong, but whatever... Plus, in boxing, you don't have to be unconscious to get counted out. You just have to be stunned badly enough to be unable to act, such as get back up on your feet and show you can still fight. So a "knock out" doesn't require being in a state of unconsciousness. Again, whatever. I think if we were able to talk verbally there would be a lot less disagreement.

[Traveller]

It's quite simple actually. You're equating "unable to act" with "unconscious". By the RAW, stun effects only provide a +2 modifier, not +10, meaning a stunned being must still be able to defend itself. It's simply not as effective at defense due to being stunned, thus the +2. That means for 1d4 rounds the monk gets a +2 to his attacks while the troll would not be able to attack at all, only defend.

As to the troll, it lost due to a TKO, not a true KO. That's understandable, and I wasn't questioning why you did it nor how you did it. You'll note that I did mention that I liked the end result, which means I'm not disagreeing with you. After all, it is YOUR game, and YOUR rules. We're simply observers.

[Go0gleplex]

One way to look at it would be that a normal stun hit would rattle their cage and all but the KO was effectively the influence of the critical roll itself.

[Traveller]

I totally agree. Just to make it clear for anyone reading, my pointing out the RAW doesn't always mean I disagree with how you apply the rules. I freely admit I'm a rules-laywer CK, but even I will fudge rules if the end result is cool. I honestly think with the work I do for the Trolls, some people forget that.

[Captain_K]

I discussed this thread with my monk players and they've read it too and love it. I was proud to hear they're still happy with our method of play, but thought this was great fun too.

Aside: When I asked Traveller what happened to Arduin, as he had not chimed in on this which was shocking to me, I also asked his opinion on this thread.

Great discussion and much food for thought on how to make a memorable moment. I fear I get to interested in my set ups and my "creatures".. I would work too hard to "give the troll a chance to shake it off and keep on fighting"... I need to do further study under the true masters of the "art of cool" as this thread and cheers of support clearly note. I'm humbled by the scope of great gamesmanship on these pages!

[tylermo]

Traveller, I agree with you regarding the +2 for being stunned. Either way it sounds like you guys had an epic session, Tree. That's what it's all about.

[Treebore]

It's quite simple actually. You're equating "unable to act" with "unconscious". By the RAW, stun effects only provide a +2 modifier, not +10, meaning a stunned being must still be able to defend itself. It's simply not as effective at defense due to being stunned, thus the +2. That means for 1d4 rounds the monk gets a +2 to his attacks while the troll would not be able to attack at all, only defend.

As to the troll, it lost due to a TKO, not a true KO. That's understandable, and I wasn't questioning why you did it nor how you did it. You'll note that I did mention that I liked the end result, which means I'm not disagreeing with you. After all, it is YOUR game, and YOUR rules. We're simply observers.

I actually talked to Steve about this, who then called in Mac and Davis (this was while we were all at NTRPGCon last June). Steve couldn't get a consensus on it before leaving the convention, so I bugged him on Twitter, and eventually got the "consensus" answer from the 3 of them, the Monk does indeed incapacitate their opponents for 1d4 rounds, that is what unable to act means, so you have another item to add to your errata list.

Plus, to get the +10, you have to be unable to defend yourself, which is not exclusive to being unconscious, it just takes being unable to act, IE unable to do anything at all, no moving, no attacking, no defending, which "unable to act" very conclusively covers under my understanding of the English language.

[Traveller]

Actually, I wouldn't consider it errata, but would lump under "CK's discretion".

[Treebore]

Actually, I wouldn't consider it errata, but would lump under "CK's discretion".

Well, most CK's like to know exactly how the creators of the game intend something to work, which is why I asked Steve.

[Captain_K]

Yep, if the monk "stun" is supposed to come with a +10 bonus and no defense I would like that directly spelled out and drop the word stun since it is defined to mean something entirely different (aka just a +2). But someone totally helpless is basically "dead" in the next round making this attack almost the equivalent of the 10th level Monk ability "death strike" (stun in one round and coup de gras the next) and better than the assassin "death attack" since it does not need to be with surprise and no three rounds of stalking.

After writing that, seems too powerful, but once printing 7 clears that up... or Steve makes a post I think I'll go with it and be ready for a group of monks and multi-class monks

I love the monk class.. especially when its mixed with the assassin!

[Traveller]

Well, most CK's like to know exactly how the creators of the game intend something to work, which is why I asked Steve.

Then make sure Steve knows. But I don't agree with him on this one and side with Captain K. The +10 bonus makes this ability too powerful.

[bugleyman]

The scenario was a fight ring that is ran by a scummy guy and his organization in Bards Gate. They have a Troll (the 9 HD variety) that they have muzzled so it can't bite, and bind its hands so it cannot claw, but it can still do the bear hug if it hits with both "hands". Anyways, the party's 6th Level Monk has been making a name for himself in the fighting rings, and positioned himself to fight this Troll for a purse that was now at 5,000 GP.

The Troll won initiative, and despite the Monks low AC, only hit the Monk once. Then the Monk went. Nat 20, which was fine, but he had also declared it as his Stun Attack. I rolled, got a 3. He knocks out the Troll with his first punch of the fight!

So that is where we wrapped up the session, and the player and his fellow players are celebrating such a decisive win.

Very nice. As for how it sounds like you run your games, I like the cut of your jib.