Assassins and Bards

[Utgardloki]

I'm looking over the class selections in the Castles and Crusades Players Handbook, and two classes I am wondering about whether I should offer to the PCs.

The first is the Assassin. I'm sure there are people who have fun playing assassins, but if I'm running a campaign with a lot of wilderness exploration and dungeon crawls and treasure hunts, I'm not sure how much fun it will be for an assassin PC. The class seems very much geared towards urban adventures and political intrigue that I don't see being a major part of my game. So I wonder if I should just say that the assassin class is not recommended for PCs in this game.

The second is the Bard. I note that the C&C bard does not have magic spells. Being able to cast limited spells is one of the major attractions of the Bard, in my opinion, so I think I'd like to replace the Player's Handbook bard with one that has spells. What I would like to know is if there is any experience with people playing the spell-less bard, and how they stack up against the other class options.

Thoughts?

[Aramis]

I'm looking over the class selections in the Castles and Crusades Players Handbook, and two classes I am wondering about whether I should offer to the PCs.

The first is the Assassin. I'm sure there are people who have fun playing assassins, but if I'm running a campaign with a lot of wilderness exploration and dungeon crawls and treasure hunts, I'm not sure how much fun it will be for an assassin PC. The class seems very much geared towards urban adventures and political intrigue that I don't see being a major part of my game. So I wonder if I should just say that the assassin class is not recommended for PCs in this game.

The second is the Bard. I note that the C&C bard does not have magic spells. Being able to cast limited spells is one of the major attractions of the Bard, in my opinion, so I think I'd like to replace the Player's Handbook bard with one that has spells. What I would like to know is if there is any experience with people playing the spell-less bard, and how they stack up against the other class options.

Thoughts?

The assassin is definitely a niche class. It does best in urban environments. Also, the odd way the main skill of assassination works it is either spectacularly powerful (you killed him with one shot!) or a damp squib (you spent 4 rounds setting up a big ball o' nothing and now the entire combat is over)

I think it can work. Generally we make the assassin more of a special forces/monster killer type of character (a ranger with a bad attitude ) and we don't allow the assassin to be anti-party (i.e generally if the party is good aligned, we make a "good" assassin of the aforementioned monster killer variety)

The C&C bard is more of a scandinavian skald. A sword swinging tale spinner who rouses his comrades to feats of derring do beyond mortal ken. The alternative, more troubador type bard, can be found in older editions (dragon magazine, 2e, 3e) and I assume would be easily adapted to C&C. Essentially, they gain a slow spell progression, some rogue skills, and some charm type skills in exchange for a greatly reduced BtH progression and restricted armour

[Boot Knife]

You should check out the Troubadour class in the Crusaders Companion.
It appears to be a bard class with limited spells.
https://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdf ... panion.pdf

[Captain_K]

We use the assassin, in a good group, as noted above.. the royal assassin as it were, the professional paid agent of high powers.. gone renegade or on a mission, etc. etc. but rarely a "underworld paid killer"... but that can work too.. just hard in a trust based group.

The bard is quite different than the bard of 1st edition.. it was quite unique then. I have a write up on my best attempt to make this 13th class fit better to my idea of past and present bards, kind of a blend.. if you're interested PM me and I'll send it to you.

[Buttmonkey]

I've had players run assassins before in a traditional dungeon crawl campaign and they seemed to enjoy it. I've always viewed good-aligned assassins to be like SWAT team snipers. I've never been hung up on the evil assumptions from 1E. The C&C assassin has a range of thief skills that allow them to fill in for a rogue and is tougher than a rogue in combat. I think it's a great class.

The bard is what it is. Although it doesn't have spell casting a la 1E, it does have lore-based skills that could make it a very valuable member of a party. I think it's a great class for players who are interested in the campaign world and its history. There are lots of opportunities for a bard to shine if the GM sets them up.

[Utgardloki]

We use the assassin, in a good group, as noted above.. the royal assassin as it were, the professional paid agent of high powers.. gone renegade or on a mission, etc. etc. but rarely a "underworld paid killer"... but that can work too.. just hard in a trust based group.

The bard is quite different than the bard of 1st edition.. it was quite unique then. I have a write up on my best attempt to make this 13th class fit better to my idea of past and present bards, kind of a blend.. if you're interested PM me and I'll send it to you.

I'd be interested to see what you've written up for a bard. You can email me at davidpleemon@ourmail.com.

As for the assassin, I think I'll allow it, but not encourage it. Assassins do have a role to play as NPC characters, but a PC assassin is playing at his own risk.

[Utgardloki]

You should check out the Troubadour class in the Crusaders Companion.
It appears to be a bard class with limited spells.
https://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdf ... panion.pdf

Thanks for this link. There may be more things I can add to my campaign, such as Witches and Gladiators.

[Captain_K]

By definition a PC Assassin does not wear a name tag. They are simple fighters, or thieves, or multi-class fighter-thieves.. to their fellow PCs.. identity is kept secret. Try that approach, have code words for the class skills that are special.. try it that way, you and the PC will have fun... as other PCs figure it out have a note given to each that they are members of the inner circle of knowledge and should keep the secret or the PC must leave or worse silence a wagging tongue.. have fun with the level of the royal or noble assassin... Try the series by Robin Hobb "Assassin's Apprentice" if you need a good model. Heck many of our braches of the secret services are affectively assassins. What more is an Archer or a sniper in modern times but a specially trained killed from a distance.

[Captain_K]

Oh did I mention "The Right Hand of God" and "The Left Hand of God"? All the right handed children who pass the tests become Paladins of their God, all the left handed children who pass the tests become LG Assassins of their God. Two branches of the same LG holy order. Each professional "killers", it does it in a different way... but they are both fully supported by the church to kill evil, the most vicious evil out there. All are lawful, all are good, both use ANY tool to kill the evil per their specific sects strict rules of secrecy, holiness, and utter destruction of evil.

[Captain_K]

On that note, our Illusionist is a wizard-cleric class and a half... much higher chance to fail that INT save... chalk those up to a fickle god who only grants healing "sometimes"....

[Nahuris]

As for the Assassin, you can always play it as a bounty hunter, as well. They work to apprehend the criminals or wanted people, both in cities, and out in the wilderness. Hiding is hiding, as is sneaking.... and sometimes, criminals will use locks to keep the law out, so you need to be able to get in those places. As for traveling with a party in the woods... many lords and nobility will put a bounty on horse thieves, cattle rustlers, and goblin leaders, as well as thieves, bandits, or outlaws..... Others have already mentioned the monster hunter approach.

The bard reminds me more of someone like Indiana Jones, or a wandering historian / scholar. A professional tomb raider / source of knowledge. This would be the guy that KNOWS that certain ancient religions tend to trap their altars, while others rely on different methods. This is the guy that will recognize those old wood discs as ancient currency of a specific kingdom, and may even know a buyer, or know that this moss you are all walking past is wanted by many wizards for some potion that they make .... or how much that set of crystal fairy statues you found are really worth. They would also know the history of that heraldry you see in this ruined castle, and know the legends of how that knightly order was all once turned to vampires....etc.

Sometimes, the classes that don't seem to fit, work very well, when you get a creative player doing them.

Nahuris

[Captain_K]

Nahuris, Well put and I could not agree more. How you play it is half the fun. A fighter can be an archer or a samurai.. just how you play it.

By the way, WELCOME to the boards.

[Lurker]

Oh did I mention "The Right Hand of God" and "The Left Hand of God"? All the right handed children who pass the tests become Paladins of their God, all the left handed children who pass the tests become LG Assassins of their God. Two branches of the same LG holy order. Each professional "killers", it does it in a different way... but they are both fully supported by the church to kill evil, the most vicious evil out there. All are lawful, all are good, both use ANY tool to kill the evil per their specific sects strict rules of secrecy, holiness, and utter destruction of evil.

NICE very very nice



As for the usefulness of the assassin, yes in a normal fight they are limited (if they miss that one critical sot).

However, if you set up an ambush, .... killing the bad guys leader in the first seconds of combat ...

As for the bard, I agree with you - nahuris - Indy . Mixed with as Aramis puts it, the Skalad

[Utgardloki]

NICE very very nice



As for the usefulness of the assassin, yes in a normal fight they are limited (if they miss that one critical sot).

However, if you set up an ambush, .... killing the bad guys leader in the first seconds of combat ...

As for the bard, I agree with you - nahuris - Indy . Mixed with as Aramis puts it, the Skalad

That sounds like another reason to keep the Assassin "behind the counter", so to speak. Some players can play a sorcerer, use up all his spells, and then just begin to fight. Others are useless if they can't make obvious use of their class abilities.

[Captain_K]

An assassin in "normal" combat is as good as a thief. High dex and a ranged weapon, not a bad thing, always something to do..

[Captain_K]

Oh did anyone mention that the guys the assassin's arrow struck seemed to turn blue before they died and he always managed to just wound that last bad guy for questioning for a few minutes before he died suddenly when the assassin was done questioning him... amazing stuff those arrows from the assassin...

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

Personally, I really like the skald-influenced C&C bard. As far as the assassin class goes, I’d say that you should let the group know the sort of campaign to expect, and let them decide if any of them still want to make an assassin.

Another factor depends on your gaming group. Do they get that the group has to work together, or are they the sort to be purposefully fractious? People can use a class like the assassin as an excuse to cause trouble, both the ones playing the class and the ones playing with. Or they can make a character that still fits with the rest of the group, assassin or not.

[Captain_K]

JF is spot on with that one... never let a PC make a mess of things.. if they cannot work an assassin into the fabric of the world, either the player or the CK, do not do it.. that is why I go for the "the assassin is just another PC trying to kill that bad guys"... rather you blast the orcs to death with a fire ball, wade in with a bastard sword, or smite them with a flame strike or poison their meal before the fight begins. They're all dead and their god will sort them out. Personally, I never found poisoning the bad guys and worse than hacking them to death with a sword. Personally, I'd rather be poisoned.

[serleran]

I don't use any of the classes, really, but break them apart and select specific abilities. I find it more fun to make custom characters than the cookie cutter platter. But, I am OK playing them as-is, if required. Good thing its not.