Combat Initiative and order..

[Captain_K]

This is more a poll on how do you all do it. Not really looking for an argument of right or wrong.. just how do you do it and if you want, why.

The PH is pretty clear that a combat round with initiative rolls is pretty much just to give an order to walk through the 10 seconds of fight and the narrative of the fight might be in a different order.

If you more or less agree with this approach that TRUE actions are not strictly dictated by initiative, how do you handle a fighter vs an orc, each down to 3 hit points.. the fighter wins initiative and hits with enough damage to kill the orc.. is the orc dead and gets no attempt to attack, or since order is not a guarantee, the orc still rolls to hit and if he scores the hit could also kill the fighter even though he lost the initiative?

Thoughts?

[Rigon]

I use one roll to determine initiative at the beginning of combat. It's faster than by the book, IMO. So the "order" is highest to lowest with PCs going before monsters/NPCs.

In your example, the fighter attacks the orc first and if he hits it with enough damage to bring it below 0, it is dead and doesn't get to act.

R-

[pawndream]

I pretty much run initiative by the book. Everyone rolls a d10 at the start of the round and actions occur as we run through the initiative count. If a creature is defeated before their count comes up, they don't get an action.

[maximus]

My group plays exactly as Rigon describes above, except I use a d20 for the roll. Not really sure why though...

[Buttmonkey]

I use group initiative. I make someone roll a d6 for the party. I roll a d6 for the monsters. Higher roll goes first. Reroll in the event of ties. I usually roll initiative at the beginning of every round, but I have played where initiative is only rerolled every 3 or 4 rounds. If a monster is killed during a round before it has a chance to act, too bad so sad. It's dead and does nothing but hit the ground. The same applies for PCs. I might let a PC or monster utter some appropriately cool dying words, but no spell casting, etc.

[serleran]

1. Declare actions
2. Roll d10 or not -- depends on action declared.
3. Action modifies roll.
4. Resolve in order from highest to lowest.

[Traveller]

I don't do group initiative.

"When two beings are brought into position 10 feet (or less) apart they may engage in melee. The character with the highest dexterity strikes first. If the Castle Keeper does not know the dexterity of an attacking monster he rolls it on the spot, using 4d6 and discarding the lowest die roll. The two beings exchange blows in turn until the melee is resolved. If dexterity scores are the same, a 10-sided die is rolled for each opponent, and the higher score gains initiative, first blow.

Properly prepared back attacks, sneak attacks, and death attacks by rogues and assassins are assumed to have the highest dexterity score for purposes of that attack. The target does not receive a return attack, and the rogue or assassin does not earn a normal attack in the same round. The next round, the rogue or assassin strikes at his normal time in melee, according to his dexterity score."
--Traveller's House Rules

[Omote]

By the book.

~O

[T1Hound]

I'm trying to get characters to declare actions. In 2nd edition we followed Combat & Tactics and had a good routine.

We roll a d10 unmodified. If knocked arrow, etc., and same roll, missile fire generally goes first, as does an melee attack before move and attack. If we only have a few players (like 3-4) we will use d6 or d8 for initiative.

I enjoy having simultaneous combat between individuals.

Rolling every round has work VERY well for my group. In 3.x and Pathfinder, players would sometimes forget where they were in the combat OR most likely get distracted because knowing it would take so long to get back to them (not just a rules or system issue). d10 every round has kept players involved.

[Captain_K]

OK, Sounds like we all more or less ignore that whole "combat need not go in the order of initiative.. " which I was thinking possibly the book write up wanted everyone to take their action, the order is not important until the round ends... seemed to imply/mean its like one big massive simultaneous combat round just resolved in an order. Thus in my example, both would possibly kill each other and the initiative order was just what order you found that out in... I kind of like that you all have to plan what you're doing, and do it in 10 seconds, and not wait around to see what's going on and anyone killed would still get their final action. Very interesting way to do it, but apparently not the way anyone, including myself does it. I can't for the life of me find the page to quote I read that "view", but I just read it this am.. darn it.

Specifically, our group has zeroed in on the use of a small dry erase board numbered from 1 to 15. Everyone rolls a D10 at the start of a combat, each or each group/kind of monsters too (sometimes on a big monster like a troll with claw/claw/bite I might even have three initiatives for each attack just to spread them out for fun). To your initiative roll you add you DEX modifier and an additional +1 if DEX is a prime. Then we write down each PC and monster's initials on the board and start from the top, going to the bottom. Spell casters and ranged weapon folks are supposed to be declaring before the round begins. We will keep that initiative order until the combat ends. You can "save phase" or delay and march your self down the order waiting on something, then you just move and stay there from that point forward in future combat rounds.

Works fairly well and efficiently. To improve efficiency we also give the board over to a player to run and they need to declare, "The thief is up first at 12, mage next at 9 (on deck) and the warrior is in the hole at 7..." The time keeper is responsible for always warning folks at least two turns ahead and keeps track of total rounds when required with a simple tally method. This takes some burden off the CK, brings a more skilled player on their first step into running a game, and spreads the fun while keeping things rolling. We encourage the time keeper to add color and as needed nag the players to be ready or to "keep it moving".

[mmbutter]

I use D20 for initiative and re-roll each round. Of course, all my gaming lately is online using Fantasy Grounds, so that's all automated.

[Treebore]

Roll D10, go highest to lowest, PC's go first on a tie. When relevant, I do recognize that the characters aren't just rigidly standing there the whole round, so if they player asks if they could be moving from X to Y prior to their actual attack roll, I let it occur if I see no reason for it to be impossible to do. To me, ALL that initiative reflects is when you get that opening to get in a successful attack/spell. So moving before and after is allowed, if needed, requested, and I see no reason to be against it.
Except spell casters, they cannot move until after their spell goes off, on their initiative roll. Unless they are using items such as a Wand or Staff, then they can move before and after, since I look at those as more like weapons than spell casting.

[alcyone]

I go by the book usually. Sometimes I only roll once at the start of combat if I am lazy.

I like the initiative system in Adventures Dark and Deep too, which is more like a simplified AD&D initiative, but haven't used it with C&C.

I absolutely don't care that everything is actually happening all at once. It's a game and it's easier to take turns.

[bugleyman]

Do most of you require someone to declare spell-casting prior to rolling initiative? The rules seem to leave that bit a little vague -- possibly by design -- so I'd like to hear people's experiences.

[pawndream]

I don't have players declare their actions prior to taking their turn. We roll initiative and players tell me what their characters are doing when their initiative count comes up.

[Rigon]

Do most of you require someone to declare spell-casting prior to rolling initiative? The rules seem to leave that bit a little vague -- possibly by design -- so I'd like to hear people's experiences.

I let the player declare on their initiative.

R-

[Treebore]

Do most of you require someone to declare spell-casting prior to rolling initiative? The rules seem to leave that bit a little vague -- possibly by design -- so I'd like to hear people's experiences.

Since I presume they are casting from the beginning of the round until their initiative, when the spell is actually released, ideally I do ask, but I usually don't actually worry about it. When it gets to their turn, I just ask what they have been casting all this time.

[Captain_K]

Unless your cleric is in the fight or your wizard is multi-class, its usually a safe bet who is casting, but I like the idea at the beginning to sketch out the plan for those who have one and need to comment it also sets the scene and helps others hear or see what's going on and possibly adjust accordingly. More talk, more teamwork, more interaction is good.

[T1Hound]

(sometimes on a big monster like a troll with claw/claw/bite I might even have three initiatives for each attack just to spread them out for fun).

I like that. Plus it will throw the players.

To your initiative roll you add you DEX modifier and an additional +1 if DEX is a prime. Then we write down each PC and monster's initials on the board and start from the top, going to the bottom. Spell casters and ranged weapon folks are supposed to be declaring before the round begins. We will keep that initiative order until the combat ends. You can "save phase" or delay and march your self down the order waiting on something, then you just move and stay there from that point forward in future combat rounds.

Works fairly well and efficiently. To improve efficiency we also give the board over to a player to run and they need to declare, "The thief is up first at 12, mage next at 9 (on deck) and the warrior is in the hole at 7..." The time keeper is responsible for always warning folks at least two turns ahead and keeps track of total rounds when required with a simple tally method. This takes some burden off the CK, brings a more skilled player on their first step into running a game, and spreads the fun while keeping things rolling. We encourage the time keeper to add color and as needed nag the players to be ready or to "keep it moving".

Sounds good. Would you consider modifying for haste then? I'm more of basic like C&C Initiative or modifying it up to what 2nd Ed Combat & Tactics had with simplified weapon speeds.

[Captain_K]

If you have a haste spell I would think that's worth a pretty significant initiative bonus, about +3 to +5.

[Treebore]

If you have a haste spell I would think that's worth a pretty significant initiative bonus, about +3 to +5.

Yeah, but the C&C Haste doesn't modify initiative, it only increases your base movement and gives you one additional WEAPON attack per round. IE much like how it is in the 1E AD&D rules. Plus it never increases the number of spells that can be cast in a round.

If Spell Casters ever want to be able to cast two spells peer round, in my games, they have to survive the Lich Lords module to get the item that would enable them to do it. So its never happened. The 3 parties I have had try ended up with either a TPK or all but one of them dying.

[Lurker]

...

Properly prepared back attacks, sneak attacks, and death attacks by rogues and assassins are assumed to have the highest dexterity score for purposes of that attack. The target does not receive a return attack, and the rogue or assassin does not earn a normal attack in the same round. The next round, the rogue or assassin strikes at his normal time in melee, ...

Nice, I like that. It makes a lot of sense, but I have never heard it stated ... consider it yanked - if I ever GM again that is -

(sometimes on a big monster like a troll with claw/claw/bite I might even have three initiatives for each attack just to spread them out for fun).

I like that. Plus it will throw the players.

Rgr that, I'd never thought of that, but I like it.

[Captain_K]

If a character is so magically "fast" they move twice as fast and attack twice as much.. seems a small bonus on initiative is a reasonable thing.. That said, Tree is spot on it does not affect spells.. so would it affect a spell caster's initiative? With the cost of haste and the lack of benefit to spell casters I would assume the issue never comes up for spell casters.. short of running faster, why bother aging the year if it does not affect spells. PH: "A creature affected by haste ages one year, and assumes the risk of permanent bodily damage from the strain of the spell. At the end of the spell’s duration, an affected creature must make a successful constitution saving throw or lose 1 hit point permanently."

So assuming you take your best fighter with two attacks per round and make the fighter a buzz saw with 4 attacks per round, we're talking physical stuff we want to enhance likely.. that said the spell is specific, from PH: "Neither spell casting nor other actions are accelerated." So since the fighter is only having his attacks and movement doubled.. when he does such attacks is all one in the same.. so speeding up when they kick in those four attacks, could be (house rule?) affected, i.e. still seems reasonable that if all you're doing is attacking and moving it COULD be affecting you initiative. heck, you might have to say, "with four attacks you will be first and last in every round plus roll two initiative rolls for your other two attacks to see where they fall". You really need to spread those four attacks out.. not all four on the same initiative... at least I would think so...

Might be fun to see how folks do fighter with two attacks and initiative.. I just have them roll initiative twice, so they act twice in a round base on their dice roll.