New multi-classing idea.

[slimykuotoan]

I don't like the idea of multi classes not benefitting from armour, etc., so I'm kicking around this idea:

Multi-classes benefit from the abilities of all classes used.

The armour bonus modifies the save needed against a spell cast. Ex. A fighter/wizard with an armour bonus of 4, has his/ her spell save difficulty reduced by 4.

For xp, total the amount for all classes, then multiply by 1.5 to get the required xp for next level.

Thoughts?

[Treebore]

This actually goes to a fundamental problem I have always had with dual and multi classing. Say, for example, your playing a Fighter Wizard. Your already paying for the ability to wear heavy armors, but have to give them up. Yet you still pay the same XP, when your giving up one of the biggest advantages of the fighter class, a high AC. Shouldn't you be paying less XP for giving up such an important aspect of the class?

[slimykuotoan]

Totally

[Kayolan]

One of the game reasons to play and elf in B/X and BECMI was that you could wear armor of any kind and still cast spells. The same was true in original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. 2nd Edition AD&D really screwed up that concept by changing it to what it is now with Castles & Crusades (though with class and a half it isn't entirely true but it is highly restricted or weakened).

I've been looking at the article "Multi-Classing for Castles and Crusades" By Erac’s Cousin’s Uncle (Al Krombach)*. I really like what he has done with this and am thinking of applying these rules to my own game.

The relevant section:

Armor: Use the most favorable class to
determine allowable armors, but allow for
common-sense restrictions according to the
base classes. For instance, multi-classes based
on Rogue, Monk, or Druid will have some
obvious restrictions. I do not impose armor
restrictions on multi-classed arcane spell users
(another nod to 1E), as this stems mainly from
a 2E “nerfing” of Fighter-Magic Users, rather
than from any actual literary or legendary
examples. Personally, I feel somatic
components to be hand-gestures rather than
intricate interpretive dance, so I do restrict
shield use to keep a hand free, but impose no
further restrictions. I have found that low-level
characters can’t afford really good armor and
high level characters choose between magic
chainmail and +8 bracers on a largely
cosmetic basis. Single-classed wizards and
illusionists don’t use armor for the same two
reasons they don’t use greatswords: they have
neither the training nor the interest to do so. If,
however, it just seems WRONG to you, feel free
to disallow armor use to the arcane multiclasses
in your campaign.

* I'm almost sure that this article was written before the multi-classing rules were included in the later printings of the PHB.

[T1Hound]

I'm having trouble with the base multi-class system from it being too in favor for multi-classing.

For example, I'm looking at a half-orc Druid/Barbarian that a player wants. The character will be usually behind the single class characters by one level with little penalty from armor restriction, etc.

It's going to be pretty uber. In a few levels, he'll have some healing, shape change, etc. and in comparison to other characters they will have an extra level, a few more hit points, a little better of a saving throw, etc.

[slimykuotoan]

I think the best way to handle that is an xp penalty that places the multiclassed character 2 levels lower than the rest of the party on average.

[slimykuotoan]

Anyone have an idea for an appropriate experience penalty?

[Kayolan]

I'm having trouble with the base multi-class system from it being too in favor for multi-classing.

For example, I'm looking at a half-orc Druid/Barbarian that a player wants. The character will be usually behind the single class characters by one level with little penalty from armor restriction, etc.

It's going to be pretty uber. In a few levels, he'll have some healing, shape change, etc. and in comparison to other characters they will have an extra level, a few more hit points, a little better of a saving throw, etc.

Well, let's take a look at how this would pan out over the long term;
factoring in long term play, the difference is quite remarkable.

While in the beginning, we see that yes, there is only a slight difference in
levels between the multi-class druid/barbarian and his single class
counterparts. However, once you get to the higher levels, the gulf widens
considerably. Once you take into consideration who is going to be getting
their high level magics first and how long will it take for the multi-class PC
to get his, it is quite a difference indeed. Also, if you use the CKG rules for
what benefits characters gain at higher levels, the difference is even more
advantageous to the single class character.

[Treebore]

I'm having trouble with the base multi-class system from it being too in favor for multi-classing.

For example, I'm looking at a half-orc Druid/Barbarian that a player wants. The character will be usually behind the single class characters by one level with little penalty from armor restriction, etc.

It's going to be pretty uber. In a few levels, he'll have some healing, shape change, etc. and in comparison to other characters they will have an extra level, a few more hit points, a little better of a saving throw, etc.

Well, let's take a look at how this would pan out over the long term;
factoring in long term play, the difference is quite remarkable.

While in the beginning, we see that yes, there is only a slight difference in
levels between the multi-class druid/barbarian and his single class
counterparts. However, once you get to the higher levels, the gulf widens
considerably. Once you take into consideration who is going to be getting
their high level magics first and how long will it take for the multi-class PC
to get his, it is quite a difference indeed. Also, if you use the CKG rules for
what benefits characters gain at higher levels, the difference is even more
advantageous to the single class character.

Yeah, paying the XP for both classes is more than enough of a "penalty" in the long run. It is a penalty, because your still paying for things you will completely ignore because one class will over shadow it, such as BtH, yet you will still be paying for that BtH progression that will never modify the attack roll you use.

[Captain_K]

Clerics cast just fine in armor and shield, yet in game mechanics they use the same V, S, & M spell casting "system" and the same casting times too.
Close your eyes, well not yet, think of a wizard... Gandalf??? I bet half of you did.. he used a long sword....
Wizards use staves usually when they had power in them...
Multi-class when below 10th level is usually only one level behind for what they gain..
Since experience is harder, twice the training, later starting age, less money to buy stuff.. they start out 'OK"
If you use any sort of encumbrance, your mage better have STR and CON or the armor will over encumber.
Armor is heavy, costly and just a few AC points (+4 to +6), if the magic spells cannot add to non-magical armor then let them have some armor...

In the past we allowed elven chain or any chain or non-metallic armors... have fun with it.. allow some but not all. Make the mage expend a spell and some "life" or energy to "format" or graft the armor into his/her magical aura.. costing extra money, time and possibly some h.p. or CON value. Kind of like how a familiar has a back bite to it when things go wrong.

Serleran, has rules for everything under the sun and makes "classes" as he goes... the class and a half and multi-class are at the end for a reason.. options... so if anything is fair game... house ruling optional rules seems very "troll-ceptable".

In the end, I let my players play what they want... we have an illusionist/monk, a fighter/mage, an assassin/monk, an illusionist/bard, etc... NONE overshadow the others, everyone has fun. So let them play. Modify as you or the player think is reasonable, try it on a temporary basis, if the game does not go tits up, let the new mod go.

[Kayolan]

house ruling optional rules seems very "troll-ceptable".

House-ruling any of the rules is "troll-ceptable"

That's the beauty of running a non-codified game, though personally I find most of the suggested rules as written to fit my style pretty well. It's what the rules don't cover that I enjoy making on-the-spot rulings for.

Nothing is stopping CKs from having armor-wearing wizards if that's what they want in their games. Same goes with multi-classing, do whatever you want with it, it's your campaign.

[slimykuotoan]

Thanks Kayolan. Your chart helped me realize that multi-classed characters in fact do not require an xp penalty.