Help a newcomer to C&C?

[WSUJ Steve]

Why hello to the fine troll folk of various mountains, bridges, and swamps!

I am new to Castles & Crusades. Through the Lost City of Gaxmoor, I acquired the CK Guide, Monsters & Treasures, Two PHB's, all of the A level adventures, Chaos Rising, The Lost City of Gaxmoor (obviously), and a couple of other minor supplements. I then got in on their most recent sale and have ordered: 3 more PHB's, Codex of Aihrde, Classic Monsters & Treasures, Aihrde: Heart of Glass, and Night of the Spirits.

I've spent the last week preparing, going through A0, the CK Guide, PHB, and having my 6 PC's roll up characters. The one thing I've been having trouble with is that there's no guidance on how to balance encounters in terms of monsters. On pg. 299 of the CK Guide it basically indicates that a challenge level system does not exist at all in C&C. While this may be liberating for long-time players of C&C, as a newcomer I feel this is a bit of an oversight.

I could use any tips and tricks you folk use when populating your dungeons. Even if you only have general rules. As I have 6 PC's, even something as simple as HD = combined party level leaves something to be desired as there's clearly no way they'd be able to take on a 6hd monster. It's proving a bit frustrating.

[Go0gleplex]

First off...welcome to the insanity mate!

The lack of challenge level system is, as I understand it, intentional as balance is an artifice and the "real world" in gaming reference, does not play nice. It is up to the players to decide to run or charge in over their heads. If they are hack n slash happy, then they may find themselves jumping into a cuissinart situation where stopping and thinking about things would serve them better and so forth.

That said, one rule of thumb is HD+1 per each PC in the group for a challenging encounter. This varies between CKs so others may use a different meter if they bother. Though keep in mind too that C&C is a bit deadlier in combat than D&D is.

[Buttmonkey]

You've already noted my usual starting point for gauging encounter strength: Compare the total HD of monsters to the total levels of the PCs. I disagree that there's no way a party of 1st level PCs could take on a single 6 HD monster. That's too broad a statement. 1 6 HD ghoul with 3 paralyzing attacks per round is probably a death sentence. A 6 HD skeleton with no special attacks is a very different story. The tactical environment and spell selection also factor in. That said, I rarely sic a single monster with HD equal to the total of the PCs' levels on the party (e.g., a 30 HD monster taking on a party of 6 5th level PCs is not something I would normally consider for an encounter the PCs can be expected to survive through combat).

One tool I found very helpful when starting out was to send monsters at the PCs in waves. If you don't have a strong sense of the difficulty of a group of monsters, break it down into pairs or groups of 3. Send a first wave at the party. If the PCs get their asses kicked, then the rest of the waves are never employed. If the PCs defeat the monsters easily or with moderate difficulty, that should give you a good sense of whether and how many more monsters to send at the party. Waves can come in the form of reinforcements (e.g., one of the goblin guards runs to summon back-up when the party arrives and the reinforcements arrive shortly after the first combat is completed or possibly while it is still going) or wandering monsters (e.g., the next wave represents unaffiliated monsters who heard the commotion of combat and decided to check things out).

Take a look at A0. It's designed for first level PCs and should be a pretty good example of what is reasonable for your party. Some of the encounters are tough for 1st level PCs. The mess hall has a ton of opponents and the wolves are pretty damn tough as well. It's up to the players to come up with appropriate tactics and play smart in order to survive. They'd better have the good sense to sneak around a bit when approaching the mess hall so that they have some warning of what they are about to walk into. For the wolves, it's going to be important to take advantage of choke points like doorways and sleep spells. If your players just run down the halls singing at the top of their lungs and kicking in every door they see, they are probably going to die quickly. That is a level-appropriate outcome.

If you are really nervous, play out the combats by yourself a time or two in advance to get a sense of what you can reasonably expect as outcomes.

Don't obsess over balancing encounters. One extra monster probably isn't going to make a significant difference compared to the luck factor inherent in rolling dice or smart and stupid decisions by the players.

I think you will quickly find that you will develop a sense of how many and what kind of monsters to send at your party.

Oh, I would also disagree that C&C combat tends to be a bit deadlier than D&D combat. At least with respect to the early editions C&C is modeled after. If you have ever run 1E or 2E, you should have a pretty good handle on it. I don't have enough experience with 3E+ to compare, although I've heard folks say the older editions are deadlier.

[Treebore]

The biggest single determining factor is how likely is your group to use good, basic, tactics?

If they always just charge in and attack, then doing the HD to HD comparison, and never doing more then twice their HD with any one creature is probably the safest way to go.

Now if they use good, basic, tactics, a First level party can PROBABLY handle a 6 HD Troll without anyone getting killed.

So if they are not prone to using tactics, or you have no idea how they play, sticking to 1 or 2 HD of enemies per character level, with one leader type maybe a level or two above that, is a solid general rule of thumb.

If you want to get really good at it, you have to factor in BtH's versus AC's. likelihood of saving versus spells likely to be cast, etc... Something no system, such as what 3E uses, can do for you. Its simply too complex. We, the CK, learn to do that with experience.

[WSUJ Steve]

I really appreciate both of your comments. A baseline of 1 HD+1 for a challenging encounter makes sense. It makes even more sense coupled with the idea of sending in waves of enemies.

My concern primarily stems from this being a new system for all 7 people involved and a good 2/3rds of my party has very little tabletop RPG experience. So, the chances of them blindly running into a room is non-zero. That being said, learning the hard way is definitely an option.

The experience I have had has mostly been in 3.0, 3.5, 4th, and some 5th. So, I'm used to the party being somewhat super-powered compared to C&C. This is one of the reasons I'm excited about using a different system. I also have some older 3.0 stuff that I wanted to be able to use again, without having to source 3.0 books.

Do you guys have any other advice for a fledgling Castle Keeper in terms of running the game that might differ from how a different version might run?

[Buttmonkey]

Here's my take on running the SIEGE engine:

Don't worry about setting a challenge level until after the player rolls her d20. The rules as written (RAW) tell you to set a challenge level (CL) and calculate the challenge class (12/18 + CL) before rolling. I don't think any experienced CKs really do it that way. I've talked to Trolls who have confirmed they don't really do it that way themselves. Have the player roll first. If the result is really high and it involves a prime stat, you can probably tell the check was successful without ever needing to set a CL. If the roll is low, particularly if it is a non-prime ability, then you can probably tell the check was a failure without ever needing to set a CL. You only need to set a CL when the roll is in the middle. What exactly constitutes "the middle" will slowly shift as you deal with higher level PCs and monsters, but when dealing with low hit die monsters and low level PCs, you will probably avoid ever having to trouble your brain to set a CL easily more than half of the time since the low/high roll makes setting a CL unnecessary.

The PHB makes this painfully clear, but it's worth repeating: Don't require a SIEGE check for everything a PC tries to do. SIEGE checks are only for things that carry a non-negligible risk of failure and where failure has meaning. Sure, a PC might fail to climb a tree, but if it's in a noncombat setting and no one cares about the consequences of failure, why are you making the player roll? You should treat it as an auto-success and move on.

Some house rules I use (some of the other posters have links to their remarkably lengthy house rules in their signature lines):

1. Max hit points for PCs at first level.
2. I give monks a +1 to AC across the board compared to the ACs listed in the class description. Everything else being equal, a first level monk should be better able to defend himself in combat than a first level wizard.
3. I don't allow paladins and knights and really hate barbarians (but currently allow them). They all suck. Opinions differ on this.
4. I use the optional spell slot rules from the CKG. My players like them and I haven't had any power-balance problems yet.
5. I also use hero and luck points from the CKG. My players love them.
6. I usually give first level wizards and illusionists a semi-defective wand. It can hold 3 charges of a spell (typically magic missile for wizards) and will cease functioning just about the time the wizard hits second level.
7. The RAW are vague about what level caster is associated with magic items such as scrolls and wands that can be used to cast a spell. For example, if your PC has a wand of fireball, is the spell cast based on the PC's level? The minimum level necessary to create the item? The rules don't say. In my game, the caster level for such items is the level of the caster who created the item in the first place (thus, you may get a scroll with a fireball that goes off as if cast by a 20th level wizard). This makes some scrolls and wands significantly more valuable than others. In the cases of wizard and illusionist spells, it also forces the player to make a choice about whether to use the scroll for the nuclear bomb it is or copy the spell into their spell book (thereby losing the benefit of casting it at the level of the creator of the scroll).
8. NPCs do not have to follow the rules for PCs in the PHB's class descriptions. NPCs are just another form of monster. Thus, if my players get into a fight with a wizard, that wizard is not going to be built around the wizard class description. Instead, I will just give the wizard whatever and however many memorized spells as I want. Hit points will be based on what hit dice I assign to the wizard (not level, since monsters don't have levels). You can certainly go through all of the hassle of writing up a classed NPC like a PC, but it is unnecessary and takes a lot longer. Give your NPCs whatever powers and abilities you want. I also tell my players when they join the game that this is how I do things. I don't want any hard feelings based on erroneous player expectations.
9. I got rid of all of the fiddly armor options from the PHB and reduced the list to the standard armor options from 1E. I don't get enough value from throwing in Greek ensembles and Hussar stuff to make it worth using them.
10. Throw out the encumbrance rules and just eyeball it every once in awhile. D&D's encumbrance rules suck and so do C&C's. If you feel you just have to use some from of encumbrance, download the free version of Lamentations of the Flame Princess and use those rules. LotFP has the only encumbrance rules I've ever seen that are worth a damn.

[WSUJ Steve]

Thanks for the in-depth reply there.. uh.. Buttmonkey.. (I mean, hey, it IS your name).

I'd like to address all of your points.

1. I actually already did this because our fighter ended up with a starting health of 3 and that seemed a bit absurd.
2. We do have a Monk, that's an interesting point, I think I'll adopt it.
3. Of our 6 PC's we didn't get a single Knight, Paladin, or Barbarians. Why do you feel they suck? And if a player were hellbent on playing one, how would you address it?
4. I don't know what you mean, so I'll look it up in the CKG
5. Same as #4
6. Is this necessary? I know that Wizards/Illusionists are pretty low-power early on, and trade for higher powered end games. I'm hoping my campaign will be less combat oriented, and I don't see the harm with implementing a semi-broken wand. It's a neat solution to a problem I'm not aware of.
7. I REALLY like the idea of the spell scroll at whatever level, and making the player have to make a choice. I'll be adopting this 100%
8. Gotchya, I think you just saved me several hours with this one.
9. Some of the armor options seem a little odd and strangely balanced against the armour value, and EV. I'll probably just limit what can be purchased going forward.
10. I'll look up the LotFP rules. EV seems a little fiddly but I do like the idea of players having to make decisions based on what they can carry. Although I screwed up the initial implementation of this and they're carrying significantly under what they're capable of.

Some awesome insight here. It's been about 10 years since I've run a game myself, so all of this is incredibly valuable.

[Treebore]

When adjudicating, remember this is a game, and fun is the ultimate goal. Now that doesn't mean give players whatever they want or to always let them succeed, it means just do your best to make your decisions based upon having the most fun possible in the long term. Some times, maybe often, depending on what "style" payers you have, that will mean being a bit mean, stingy, etc... but for long term fun, you have to do what you have to do to keep your game cohesive and fun for you to run as well.

Also, as Buttmonkey points out, many of us have a lot of House Rules, and they can look extensive. Mine are not in my sig, but you can go to the on line game forum and look at any C&C game I have run, and find my House Rules at the beginning of every one of them. Mine range from modifying classes a bit, to clarifying a fair number of rules and spells, ro completely altering Teleport spells, to how to have magical armor and bonus' stack in C&C, to a class based of the D20 version, the Runemark, to how I handle skills, and so on. Most House Rules cover these same things, some in the same way, some differently, so well worth looking over for a variety of perspectives on how to tweak the rules.

That said, I STRONGLY suggest you run your first game as by the book as you can tolerate. I think this is important because it gives a better understanding of how tweaking the rules in the future will change things in the longer view.

Plus that is what I think makes C&C the strongest RPG around. If you don't like how the rules handle things, as long as you like the SIEGE engine, you can tweak it and add on things like a skill system, alternate magic systems, etc... and it won't break down. So you can literally turn C&C into precisely the game you want it to be. The hard part is figuring out what that is.

[Treebore]

Oh, and definitely check out the Crusaders Companion. Its a fan made "companion" to C&C, and contains many alternate classes fans have made up, a number of other house rules ideas, monsters converted from other sources, etc...

This is the newest iteration Peter is working on, but an older version, and perhaps even bigger, is also hosted on the TLG website.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... panion.pdf

Edit: The 2011 version hosted at the TLG website is here:

http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/index.html

A fan made C&C specific treasure generator is located here:

http://www.rpggrognard.com/treasure/

[Treebore]

Oh, and you may want to become a Knight of the Crusade, and get some more fan made freebies...

http://www.knightsofthecrusade.com/

[WSUJ Steve]

Hi there Treebore, Thanks for the info!

I'm definitely intending on leaving our first adventures A0-A12 as is. The concern is mostly if they wander off the beaten path as I generally tend to want to give them as much freedom to explore as possible. Also, while I'm running the pre-generated adventures I wanted an opportunity to start constructing my own as I have some ideas I'd like to explore.

I'll definitely take a look at the house rules as I don't mind implementing some when they make sense. Anything that makes the game run smoothly and gives a better play experience is great! My "style" tends to be more permissive than dismissive but if someone does something incredibly stupid, or actively tries to break the game, they definitely reap the rewards...

I do quite like the SIEGE engine. It seems to roll a lot of the fiddly bits of other games into a simple but effective system. It also makes your stat priority matter in a significant way.

As I progress through C&C, things will become more intuitive I'm sure. The fires are lit and I'm excited to dive back into DMing (CKing I suppose), the only stumbling block has been the encounter design component so far. Everything else lends to a quick-and-easy game, this part has had me scratching my head.

I've looked at the 2011 version of the TLG website (which I actually prefer to the newer one, it's more intuitive to navigate). But that treasure generator will be invaluable.

I also did look at the Kings of the Crusade page but it seemed like I wouldn't be welcome. I'm nowhere near 500 posts.

[Treebore]

I also did look at the Kings of the Crusade page but it seemed like I wouldn't be welcome. I'm nowhere near 500 posts.

You join for free. The posts are just one way to increase your rank within the order.

[Go0gleplex]

As Tree noted you can join the Society for free which gains you access to one of the two libraries and forum there. The Knights are those who take a more active part in the Society and enjoy a few more perks such as a chatroom and a library with even more content in it. 500 posts is one way to gain entry into the Knights. Submitting fan content is another. There should be a page noting those linked on there somewhere.

[WSUJ Steve]

Oh okay, I'll be sure to sign up for that too. I might recommend whomever runs the page to rephrase the front page verbage. It could be more clear that all are welcome!

[under_score]

Hey Steve, I think I'm in the same position you are. I just had the first session last Monday. I'm taking a fairly sandbox approach to the A series modules and sprinkling in some extra dungeons here and there.

First session had the party searching a gully east of town for a couple missing farmers boys. They found a goblin cave that led to some old cells and sacrificial pit. This dungeon was one I added in to setup a couple things. The murals on the walls gave some lore about the Horned One and evil demon stuff. The goblins were working for Gritznak, abducting people for his rituals.

It was a fun session and the party successfully rescued the farmer's sons. I had 5 players for this session and they faced a good variety of goblin groups. I had archers on high ground behind cover, a split melee/archer group, goblins with a tougher hobgoblin commander, and the finale was a fight against 8 goblins with a pit in the middle of the room with a black pudding in it. They avoided being knocked into the pit (and kicked one of the goblins in), but we had 2 adventurers unconscious before the night was over.

To be honest, I didn't worry too much about balance while setting this dungeon up. I just put in monsters that made sense for the dungeon. But I've told my players that I won't save them from dying and that they need to be prepared to run if they get in over their heads.

I actually found the game pretty easy to run. I'm working on expanding my random encounter tables for regions, since I'm doing this as a hexcrawl. And I had to redesign the A series map for my purposes and adapt a movement system that makes sense for it. Otherwise I'm playing pretty much by the book for now.

I'd be interested to hear how your campaign goes and hopefully we can exchange ideas.

[WSUJ Steve]

I'm currently neck deep in prep. Our session will be tomorrow in the early afternoon. We're starting pretty early (12:30) and my groups tend to like going pretty late, so it'll be interesting. Hopefully I'll have enough content to keep them going and interested.

Having a pre-cursor to A0 seems like a great idea.. I might have to do the same, maybe I'll offer it up as a sort of side quest before they begin the main adventure. If they choose to do it, and get that information, awesome. If not, then they'll have to piece it out later.

What do you mean by Hexcrawl? I've never heard of that.

[Captain_K]

Best of luck, welcome, "relax, don't worry, just roll the dice". If you make it too tough, that's obvious, back off quietly. Too easy.. bump up on the sly.. after all no one cares rather you turn that dial to ensure folks live or get a challenge.. they should all want to have fun. Based on your prep work, you are in a good place, you care and you're doing the work. You have a lucky bunch of players, I hope they recognize it.

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out!

[WSUJ Steve]

Alright, so today we completed our first session. I wrote about 3500 words for it, so I added a significant amount of information. I took Under_Scores advice and created a small, optional hook adventure that helped them build a bit of credibility with the people of the Malforten. I had Gwion's daughter be kidnapped by goblins. Upon discovery in a goblin cave she was hung up on a wall, a large cloth with a crudely drawn picture of the horned beast was covering her, and the intrepid heroes were able to rescue her from near death and return her to Gwion. They didn't even ask for a reward.

I wouldn't mind sharing the stuff I had prepared, as it might help others running A0.

I over estimated how much they'd be able to get through in a single session. They basically made it through the very short precursor adventure, met each other, and several of the townsfolk, and not much else. I was really hoping they would discover the laamasu, and they nearly did.. But backed away right before.

In practice, running the game is super easy. The simplified siege system really takes the reference and guess work out of encounters. So far, I'm still not certain about creating monsters and adding things in ad-hoc. It feels like the right balance is somewhat difficult to achieve without a significant amount of experience.

[Captain_K]

I too always assume they will go far each night than they do... its not that combats is too slow (OK its not the fastest) but the small talk, delays, and even just trying to decide who will and how to open a door takes time...

[WSUJ Steve]

For the first session I WAY over did it. I expected they might get through A0.. We didn't really even start A0.

Monster death toll:

Goblin x5 (while letting one charmed, interrogated, and knocked out live)
Bugbear x2

Aaaand.. that was it, in a near 7 hour session.

[Treebore]

For the first session I WAY over did it. I expected they might get through A0.. We didn't really even start A0.

Monster death toll:

Goblin x5 (while letting one charmed, interrogated, and knocked out live)
Bugbear x2

Aaaand.. that was it, in a near 7 hour session.

Role play and table talk can take up a good bit of time. Look on the bright side, at least they didn't get AHEAD of what you had prepped.

[WSUJ Steve]

Oh, I'm super happy they went at the pace they did. It's not like the prepared material ever disappears. It's still primed and ready to go. It also gives me the opportunity to flesh out the towns folk and clearly define the sort of A-B-C-D paths that they might want to take to get to specific events. More time is always good.

[Captain_K]

You can start a game page in the Crusades section. You and your players can post there, history, tasks, etc.

I thought my younger players would be all over those pages.. but not so much..