AD&D 1E-style artifacts

[alcyone]

Does anyone use the AD&D 1e or Eldritch Wizardry artifacts, with the random powers and drawbacks in their C&C campaign?
Followup: How'd that work out for you?

[Treebore]

I don't. I used them that way back in my 1E days, but found I much preferred just designing my own, or taking one from whatever sources I have, and I have a lot, such as Tome of Artifacts by Necromancer Games, and many others, including Aihrde resources, and change anything I have a problem with, and then use it.

[finarvyn]

My theory is that anything in OD&D and AD&D ought to work well in C&C. However, having said that, I usually run low-level campaigns and so I haven't tried using artifacts in my C&C because they tend to overpower everything else. If you have had success with them in AD&D I don't see why the same style couldn't work in C&C.

[alcyone]

My theory is that anything in OD&D and AD&D ought to work well in C&C. However, having said that, I usually run low-level campaigns and so I haven't tried using artifacts in my C&C because they tend to overpower everything else. If you have had success with them in AD&D I don't see why the same style couldn't work in C&C.

I haven't used them before in AD&D or OD&D. It's not the power level, just the randomness of the benefits and drawbacks that make them work in ways you could never tell from their shape and structure.

[Traveller]

I'm with finarvyn on this one. Artifacts are drastically overpowered, and while their drawbacks can be pretty severe, the unbalancing effect they have on the game itself precludes their inclusion in my games. If random benefits are important to you, grab a copy of Diablo II: The Awakening for AD&D 2d Edition. The random magic item charts in that book reportedly can generate a million different magic items.

[Treebore]

I'm with finarvyn on this one. Artifacts are drastically overpowered, and while their drawbacks can be pretty severe, the unbalancing effect they have on the game itself precludes their inclusion in my games. If random benefits are important to you, grab a copy of Diablo II: The Awakening for AD&D 2d Edition. The random magic item charts in that book reportedly can generate a million different magic items.

Well, yeah, I never introduced the 1E artifacts until play got to 15th level and above. I certainly don't recommend most of them for below 15th.

[Traveller]

They're unbalancing regardless of level.

[Treebore]

They're unbalancing regardless of level.

There is no such thing as balance in 1E AD&D. Especially at 15th level and above, so who cares?

[Lord Dynel]

I'm with finarvyn on this one. Artifacts are drastically overpowered, and while their drawbacks can be pretty severe, the unbalancing effect they have on the game itself precludes their inclusion in my games. If random benefits are important to you, grab a copy of Diablo II: The Awakening for AD&D 2d Edition. The random magic item charts in that book reportedly can generate a million different magic items.

I agree that they are unbalanced. But at the high-end level game, balance is kind of out the window. At least in my experience. That said...

Does anyone use the AD&D 1e or Eldritch Wizardry artifacts, with the random powers and drawbacks in their C&C campaign?
Followup: How'd that work out for you?

I've never used 1e artifacts in a C&C game. I did introduce an artifact from the 2e Book of Artifacts, however. As an aside, I love the 2e Book of Artifacts and how they presented artifacts...I know it's not an old school mentality but what the hey.

In my Grey Box Forgotten Realms campaign, I used the Crystal of the Ebon Flame. I had a group called the "Seekers of the Ebon Flame" who were employed by a wizard to find the artifact. The PCs learned of this by running into the group in some ruins who were looking for the artifact (the PCs weren't looking for it, just adventuring). The PCs then took it upon themselves to try to find it first because they were sure the group and the wizard were up to no good. I love it when my groups take something like that and completely run with it. It took my campaign in a different direction but it was great fun.

In the end, the PCs got to it, and the wizard began seeking them out. To this day, the wizard hasn't caught up to them. The group was afraid to use it, so they constructed (commissioned) a special case to have it locked in and they carry it with them.

[Traveller]

They're unbalancing regardless of level.

There is no such thing as balance in 1E AD&D. Especially at 15th level and above, so who cares?

Obviously I care or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Here's the problem: these artifacts are in many cases more powerful than weapons possessed by the gods in the DDG. For a simple example, compare the Sword of Kas from the DMG with Hades' +4 sword from the DDG.

The sword of kas is a +6 Defender, does double damage to all creatures not native to the Prime Material Plane, and has the following selectable powers and effects: 5 minor benign powers, 2 major benign powers, 1 minor malevolent effect, 2 major malevolent effects, 2 prime powers and 1 side effect. So, the sword of kas has nine additional powers that the possessor can use with a couple of possibly nasty side effects.

What does poor Hades have? Only a +4 sword that does 5d10 damage per strike. No additional powers, no nothing. Just an ordinary +4 sword that just happens to do a lot of damage.

Compared to the weapons of most of the gods and godlike beings, the sword of kas would therefore be overpowered. At most, it should retain its +6 Defender and double damage abilities. But then again, this is the fault of the Blume brothers, since Eldritch Wizardry was their D&D supplement where these overpowered pieces of kit first appeared. While I don't recall in its entirety how BECMI D&D dealt with the issue, 2d Edition AD&D did attempt to rein in the power of these artifacts in the Book of Artifacts, but it was the d20 System that finally solved the problem, by discarding almost all of these artifacts and elevating select items such as the staff of the magi to artifact status. Castles & Crusades, being based on the d20 System, naturally used the same solution, which I am grateful for.

[Lurker]

and that is why I hardly ever played a character much higher that 12 - 15 level and never enjoyed running a game of that level ...

That said, back when I did run a game up to that level, I still made sure that gods/goddess and the uber powerful had weapons as good or better than what ever the characters had. I looked at it like it would take a godly power to make something that powerful (or give the power to a mortal to make it) and they would never allow something more powerful than they were or their own weapon.

[finarvyn]

I'm not into high level play, either, because for me the "sweet spot" for most RPGs happens when the characters have a decent number of hit points but not so many as to become absurd. And most characters run in packs, so their combined might becomes awesome in a hurry.

The few times I have introduced artifacts typically happen when I am running a campaign for 1-2 players. I figure that if you have one character like Elric (or two if you include his sidekick Moonglum) then it's okay for Elric to have an artifact. This way the individual or duo can take on the kinds of things that a typical party might encounter and still maintain some form of "balance" between the good guys and the monsters. Too many players with too many levels means an artifact provides too much power, but on the solo scale the artifact can be a lot of fun.

[Treebore]

When the game gets to 15th level, the Wizard, Druid and Cleric can throw so many spells, there simply is no such thing as balance, unless you use nothing but creatures with an MR 0f 80% or higher, and other similar so called "fixes" they put into the game in ineffective attempts to "balance" the game.

Its just like Super Hero games, there is no such thing as balance, and it cannot be artifically created if you want a game that is organic and not rigid. Its why I constantly compare high level D&D games to Supers RPG's. There is no balance, or fairness. Just like Supers has Superman, Galactus, and Apokolypse, along with MANY others, not to mention the Infinity stones, etc... D&D has characters that can literally become Gods! There is no balance! You can try to force it to become so by limiting the system further and further, capping levels at whatever the max level your comfortable with, nerf spells, powers, and classes, but then it becomes something other than what D&D is assumed as presented to be.

D&D is a Supers RPG, just it only has medievel/Fantasy tropes instead of the modern/fantasy or future/fantasy tropes of most comic books. The only major differnce is, in comics your either born with, or somehow gain "super" powers. In D&D, you start out as a quasi normal person that risks life and limb, numerous times, to the point of where if it wasn't for XP totals, you would lose count, to become super powered. Heck, by 5th level, a Wizard is already god like compared to "normal" NPC's, since they could pretty easily destroy a town and kill everyone in it, ESPECIALLY with a bit of fore thought and actual planning. A 5th level Fighter is no slouch, they likely could kill 50 to 100 "normal" people, and with a bit of effort they can possibly burn a town to the ground, but are still far less powerful than a 5th level Wizard, especially if said wizard is able to cast Fly and use Fireball.

So what does throwing relics into the mix do? Makes it even crazier! Especially if it is a relic like the full set of the Teeth, and if it is a spell caster that gets such a relic, they effectively become many times powerful than they already were! It would be like Spiderman suddenly becoming as powerful as the entire X-men team!

So yeah, if you want to run high level D&D games, throw any ideas you have about balance out the window, it doesn't exist. IF you try to make it exist, you will likely go bald pulling all of your hair out first. It is far better to embrace the crazy unlimited possibilities and just run with it. Go world and plane hopping in order to give some kind of quasi consistent logic as to why you have things powerful enough to challenge such incredibly over powered characters. Don't be afraid to have a big home world where there is plenty of room for villains to grow powerful enough to challenge the PC's at the high levels. Do whatever you can think of!

As far as Relics, I would custom make your own, or make sure they have only 1 to 3 powers that are outside the "norm" (IE NOT on the PHB spell lists.). Also, don't be afraid to make it necessary for them to cut off their hand, or gouge out one of their eyes, or to knock out their teeth, in order to use these Artifact/Relics. Make using it cost them something, like make them age, or transform into something hideous bit by bit, or make them develop more and more boils/cysts that won't go away, or if they get their hands on the Staff of Life, make it impossible to do anything outside the alignment of Neutral Good, things like that. Players hate "restrictions" like that, and may refuse to use the artifact over such reasons. Assuming your nice enough to allow them to find out such "costs" before they do use it.

Anyways, just my lessons learned from running high level games. Do what you will, your game is your game, not mine.

[Traveller]

Well, I solved the problem by simply not including artifacts and relics in The Gray Book. I don't use AD&D for anything except research these days, so it was easy for me.