Holy Water

[Captain_K]

Bless water, a first level cleric spell, now makes holy water... in the PH and the MT I find no mention of its affect on anything... but in the CKG it does 2d4 damage and has 4 does per pint when splashed on undead and evil creatures. Wait, evil creatures, all of them? How about an evil assassin? yeah, not a creature, but hill giants are evil creatures. Now, the reverse of the spell, curse water, makes unholy water.. what does that affect any living good creature?

Yes, I know I can set the rules anyway I want, but I would think a bit more detail explaining the types of evil creatures (and in the reverse) that might be affected beyond the undead would be nice to see. I think "extraplanar" might be the key work (at least). AKA devils, demons, etc. seem like classic creatures affected. I can see a generalists argument for any opposition alignment being affected, not just good and evil, those two are just too broad. But I don't want to see Chaotic Good Norse Holy Glacial Water that affects Lawful Evil Fire Giants....

Thoughts?

[Treebore]

I just go by what is in the 1E DMG about Holy Water. I agree the Trolls left certain things far too vague.

[alcyone]

I seem to recall specific monster entries say something.

(edit: I recalled wrong, at least for M&T).

The C&C CK Screen (the portrait one anyway) says this:

**Holy Water can only be used this way against undead and evil elemental and extraplanar creatures. Unholy water can only be used this way against paladins, lawful good clerics, and good elementals and extraplanar creatures.

[Lord Dynel]

I seem to recall specific monster entries say something.

(edit: I recalled wrong, at least for M&T).

The C&C CK Screen (the portrait one anyway) says this:

**Holy Water can only be used this way against undead and evil elemental and extraplanar creatures. Unholy water can only be used this way against paladins, lawful good clerics, and good elementals and extraplanar creatures.

This is pretty much what I use.

[Lurker]

I seem to recall specific monster entries say something.

(edit: I recalled wrong, at least for M&T).

The C&C CK Screen (the portrait one anyway) says this:

**Holy Water can only be used this way against undead and evil elemental and extraplanar creatures. Unholy water can only be used this way against paladins, lawful good clerics, and good elementals and extraplanar creatures.

you know, ... in all these years of gaming, and playing a lot of paladins, I don't think I've ever seen unholy water being used on one ...

[Traveller]

What I find interesting about holy water is that it's the material component in a couple of spells (divination, shield of faith, if I recall correctly). Something I never noticed as I don't use material components. Anyway, the CKG does provide the "official" answer to the question, although I believe it was deliberately left vague in the PHB to give the CK some wiggle room. As to whether it affects evil NPCs, in OD&D (based upon some quick research) there was no damage rating for holy water. That didn't come along until basic D&D, which came along after. However, holy water was explicitly stated to have no effect on anything but undead. The CKG expands things a bit by allowing holy water to affect evil creatures, but it stops short of allowing holy water to affect evil NPCs. Unless NPCs are creatures, I would say holy water would not affect them.

That said, expanding the rule to include evil creatures I believe is a bit of a stretch, and given that the CKG is optional to begin with, would stick with 1d8 damage vs. undead and leave it at that.

[Captain_K]

I'm all for leaving things open. But when you hint something beyond undead for holy water.. the seed has been planted and now needs some watering... (all pun intended) man would this make a nice short write up in the Domesday!

I just did a "holy water" search of the pdf of the M&T and the CKG and the M&T has it only as a table 3.3 entry as a worn or ceremonial items.. never as a creature entry. The CKG does note it to do 2d4 damage and the pint has four doses. It notes how to make it and make it a permanent "magic item" for sale at 30 gp. It even notes how to make cursed water (unholy water).

So Holy water hurts undead.. and per the CK (CKG) some evil creatures.. personally devils and demons and evil extraplanar come to mind, never understood how elementals are "evil".. just misunderstood :}.

Now for cursed water, bad guys can make it with some blood and oaths, great.. it hurts the undead they can rebuke? No, that's illogical, it should heal them? Cursed water is a healing potion for undead? I like the idea of it hurts diametrically opposed religious orders.. what a water balloon fight that would be between a Paladin of say Ukko or Osiris and a evil priest of Ares "wet and smoking". But unless the cursed water gets a pretty good group of "good creatures" it affects its a rather weak "reversible" spell. Since repairing undead is hard to do, I like it healing them AND harming religious opposition.

[Traveller]

That's what house rules are for. I pointed out OD&D because Castles & Crusades emulates OD&D on this point, in that they leave the specific effects for the CK to determine. I wouldn't call this "rules vague", but CK discretion. On a side note, has d20 conditioned everyone to seek out a rule for everything?

Elementals are true neutral, and cannot be affected by unholy water, per the CKG. In fact any non-good, non-evil alignment will not be affected by holy or unholy water.

So here are the facts of the matter, per the RAW.

1. Curse water is the reverse of bless water, and is used to create unholy water.
2. The CKG lists the following effects of holy water: 2d4 damage to all undead and evil creatures.
3. Holy water is limited in that it cannot affect evil NPCs.

Using these facts, what are the effects of unholy water?

1. Unholy water heals 2d4 points of damage to all undead and evil creatures.
2. Unholy water splashed on a good creature does 2d4 points of damage.
3. Unholy water is limited in that it cannot affect good NPCs.

The preceding lists are just a long-winded way of saying, "I agree with your interpretation."

[alcyone]

I checked the landscape screen and it says the same as the portrait.

[Tadhg]

I seem to recall specific monster entries say something.

*snip

Yeah I was thinking that too and recalled that an old free PDF download from the Trolls had a mention of holy water under the skelton description and the damage was 2d4 which I have used from the get go with C&C.

I couldn't find the pdf, but it was simply called monsters.

I check my M&T in the Collector's Box and it doesn't mention the HW under skellies.

[Traveller]

I have a copy of that download. Heh...I actually printed it out back in 2005 for use with the Quickstart rules. Holy water damage in the skeleton entry in that document is 2d4.

That document was released after the Player's Handbook, but prior to the release of Monsters & Treasure. The entire reason for its existence is so Castle Keepers who had purchased the Players Handbook at the time could have some creatures to throw at the player characters. It is the first document available to us which provides a RAW means of determining the XP of creatures, as the Collector's Edition did not have that information anywhere in it. The values of the XP chart in that document are inflated, with values being approximately double that of the finished book. Clearly, between this document's release and the release of the finished book, XP values were redefined on the table, although as we all know the XP values listed with each creature would persist for years afterward. The reference to holy water disappeared in the finished version of Monsters & Treasure, and its removal had to be a conscious decision on the part of the Trolls, in keeping with the sparse amount of information about holy water in the Player's Handbook. The damage value didn't reappear until the Castle Keeper's Guide was printed, and as it was placed in that book, meant the Trolls intended the information to be an option for CKs rather than a hard, fast rule.