Falconry, Dog Training, and other animal related skills

[StealthSuitStanley]

I just came back from an excellent sportsman's banquet where we had all kinds of dead animals cooked up. The food was excellent. Alligator tail, beaver stew, rabbit, elk, deer chili, etc. There were a couple of speakers, one who was a retired championship fisherman, and another father-son duo who are falconeers! They had a couple of owls, a couple of red-tailed hawks, a kestrel, and a falcon. they flew one of the hawks across the room right over our heads. It was awesome!

With this recent experience, and my past experience in training cattle dogs (I grew up on a dairy farm in TN), my interest has been piqued toward creating a character class that focuses on these skills. I was thinking a ranger would do, but I just don't feel it from that class. I'm looking for something like the character from the movie Beastmaster.

Does anyone have any designs for such a character type?
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later

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"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[Rigon]

If you have access to the 2e book The Complete Ranger's Handbook, there is a beastmaster kit (pages 47-49) in there you could modify.

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Jason Vey]

I wrote up complete Animal Handling rules for Rangers and Druids (or rather, adapted them from the SRD). They can be found here:
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/traits.pdf

They're in the Traits section b/c I was working on Traits when I realized some of those relied upon Animal Handling...so I popped that in.

[irda ranger]

One problem I've always had with Beastmaster classes (which if you solve, would be really cool) is the "dead dog" problem. If a first level PC is given a manticore, that's way too powerful at 1st level. On the other hand, if you've still got dogs when you're fighting hill giants, pretty soon all you have are dead dogs.

The two solutions I have seen for this (neither of which appeal to me) are to (1) retire your animals as you level up, and get better animals, or (2) level up your animals, so that you've got a 20th level dog. Heroic humans and elves who can take a firefall and keep on ticking are OK with me; heroic wolves which can take 2-3 smacks from a frost giant aren't. I'm not sure that makes sense or is logically consistent, but there it is.

As I think about it though, I think the answer is to make the Beastmaster a pretty good fighter (as good as a Bard) and just rely on the animals for Class Abilities. I do recall, from the Beastmaster movie, that his animals were mostly for "tricks." The hawk grabbed things; the ferrets served as spies. Only the panther ever did any fighting, and the Beastmaster mostly fought low-level humans. I wouldn't expect the panther to last long against anyone of 4th level or higher.
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[StealthSuitStanley]

I hear where you're coming from Irda. From my experience playing characters with animal handling abilities, I've had lots of animals die. One of my CK's gave me a resource, though. It was a wizard who was researching spells to "modify" his familiar. He had created items with similar characteristics to character items; regeneration, invisibility, teleport, etc. My character actually got to meet a high level elven ranger that had elven chain on his dog. I'm sure that armor also had magical abilities.

As far as losing a dog to a giant, only an evil (or stupid) trainer would sacrifice his animal in such a way. It makes sense to use the animal as a distraction, but not in a frontal assault.
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later

SSS

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"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[Fizz]

irda ranger wrote:
level up your animals, so that you've got a 20th level dog. Heroic humans and elves who can take a firefall and keep on ticking are OK with me; heroic wolves which can take 2-3 smacks from a frost giant aren't. I'm not sure that makes sense or is logically consistent, but there it is.

For me, I don't like characters having rules unique to them. So, if the high-level human can survive being smashed by that frost giant's 50 lb club, why can't this dog? The dog has been adventuring for just as long, and has learned and toughened up in similar ways as the adventurer.

You use an increasing defense mechanic, do you not Irda? If so, that would make the dog more suvivable right there- he just knows how to get out of the way better, regardless of what his hit points are.

-Fizz

[irda ranger]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
One of my CK's gave me a resource, though. It was a wizard who was researching spells to "modify" his familiar. He had created items with similar characteristics to character items; regeneration, invisibility, teleport, etc.

As long as the intelligence also increase so the animal knows how to use these powers, I like it. That's basically like making the animal an NPC follower.

Fizz wrote:
For me, I don't like characters having rules unique to them. So, if the high-level human can survive being smashed by that frost giant's 50 lb club, why can't this dog? The dog has been adventuring for just as long, and has learned and toughened up in similar ways as the adventurer.

You use an increasing defense mechanic, do you not Irda? If so, that would make the dog more suvivable right there- he just knows how to get out of the way better, regardless of what his hit points are.

-Fizz

I love my dog, but she's an idiot. She doesn't learn from experience the way I do. She can't improvise, or learn a new style of fighting, or whatever. In two years she only correctly understands the concept of "Pick up the ball." with 10% accuracy. I am not smarter than her by a matter of degree, I am smarter than her in a matter of kind.

It's just a question of what I can believe.
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[gideon_thorne]

There's a spell I have seen that causes a type of 'awakened' awareness in animals. Towit it gives them human intelligence. Perhaps this could be a function of such a class? Contact with the character can slowly 'awaken' a type or category of species into a heightened intelligence for some sort of wilderness guardian purpose?

One can have Catlords, Wolflords, Skylords (for avian types) ect ect.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[irda ranger]

gideon_thorne wrote:
One can have Catlords, Wolflords, Skylords (for avian types) ect ect.

That would be pretty rockin', actually; especially if they could evolve physically (somewhat).

I'm making a Gnomish Badgerlord. You will fear the Awakened Dire Badger.
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[Treebore]

Yes, the Druid makes good use of the "awakened" spell.

As for pets, if you take them on adventures you better epect to lose them. The role they play in my games is sentry and to hold enemies at bay long enough for you to put armor and, or at least wake up and grab your weapons.

I don't know how many gaming groups I have internally laughed at because they thought guard dogs were useless and kept getting surprised at night. Plus they are good for revealing ambushes when they lead the way.

I have also been known to use animals to stabilize bleeding characters by licking their wounds (believe it or not dogmouths are pretty clean, especially compared to human mouths) and even fetching wood and other supplies to help disabled characters recover.

Even prevented a TPK that way, once. The whole party was knocked to anywhere from -2 to -7. When the Owlbears left them for dead and returned to their nest the dogs stabilized the wounds (licking) and guarded them until they regained conciousness. Fortunately the cleric was first to recover the next day.

I didn't find that very unrealistic since I have read of many incredible things "Hero" dogs have done to save people in real life.

I also liked that the players were so "grateful" to these dogs for saving them they started a breeding kennel based off of these dogs. Then when the party became powerful enough they had the dogs "Awakened". Yes, I then treated them like henchman and allowed them to advance as a Ranger.

Ended up being a very neat and different gaming experience.

[Fizz]

irda ranger wrote:
I love my dog, but she's an idiot. She doesn't learn from experience the way I do. She can't improvise, or learn a new style of fighting, or whatever. In two years she only correctly understands the concept of "Pick up the ball." with 10% accuracy. I am not smarter than her by a matter of degree, I am smarter than her in a matter of kind.

It's just a question of what I can believe.

Well, animals can learn, admittedly not as quickly as humans. But to be fair, i've known some really slooooooow people too. Maybe class advancement ought to be based on intelligence. That is- smarter people learn faster, ergo get more EPs.

But yes, it's a matter of believability. Personally, i don't find an animal companion learning how to avoid being hurt any less believable than a human being able to survive multiple blows from that 50 pound club of the front giant.

In game terms, the animal companion is part of the characters abilities. Most class abilities grow with the character. I mean, what's the point of being a 20th level thief if your backstab and open lock checks never improve? Apply the same logic for an animal companion, if it's part of the class features.

Just my opinion...

-Fizz

[DangerDwarf]

irda ranger wrote:
I love my dog, but she's an idiot.

Best pet statement. I know I feel the same about my retarded mutt. Which is also why I agree with you.

But think about it...

Dogs with class levels should be monks! C'mon! They cant use weapons so it's only natural that you'd go for mega unarmed attacks.

My dog can play dead....so can monks.

Ninja flipping canines delivering quivering paws to the orcish hordes.

Sweet.

[DangerDwarf]

As an aside though...

If I were a beastmaster, I'd have a knife fighting monkey.

[irda ranger]

Fizz wrote:
In game terms, the animal companion is part of the characters abilities. Most class abilities grow with the character. I mean, what's the point of being a 20th level thief if your backstab and open lock checks never improve? Apply the same logic for an animal companion, if it's part of the class features.

It's a question of what skills you can transfer to your beasts. Some things animals can learn, some things they can't. By way of example, a 1st level Beastmaster can lead a horse to water in 1d2 hours; a 20th level one can do it in 30 seconds ... with his eyes closed. Neither can make the horse drink.

My original point however was that I think it's very important, when designing this class, to consider ahead of time what things can scale from 1st through 20th level. Unless you have a way to (a) magically ugrade, or (b) trade-up; animal companions (that remain normal animals) don't scale to 20th level. Solve that problem however you want; I was just pointing out that it's there.
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[Treebore]

Use the Druidic Animal Friendship spell as a guideline.

[serleran]

I made a simple skill-like ability based on the CZ stuff, which is ending up in one of the Yggsburgh modules. Might be useful... let me see if I can find it.

Ranger / Druid Ability

Animal Training (Charisma): By use of this ability, a character is able to teach a domesticated animal a trick, such as fetching food or other item, or standing watch for extended periods. Under normal circumstances, any simple trick, as noted below, can be taught to an animal in a manner of weeks, with the exact number required being one week per Hit Dice of the animal. Complex tricks require the same amount of time, but are expressed in months. All animals can learn a number of simple tricks equal to their Hit Dice, with a complex trick being considered equal to two simple. In most cases, a check is not required to teach the animal the trick; should a character wish to speed the process, a check is made with a -10 penalty. Wild animals can be domesticated with a successful check with a -10 penalty as well, but this takes a minimum of one year; afterward, no further check need be made unless the trainer wishes to teach the animal a trick at an accelerated pace. Training an animal to serve another character requires all involved to be present throughout the training process, and a check is made, with a -3 penalty.

Simple tricks include the following, noting the list is not complete:

Stay -- The animal remains at its current position, but will only attack in self-defense

Fetch -- The animal seeks out a particular item within visual distance, and returns with it if found.

Attack -- The animal attacks an opponent to the best of its ability, but will not do so recklessly.

Use ability -- The animal uses a natural ability it possesses, such as tracking, scent, or trip, as indicated by the trainer.

Come -- The animal moves from its position to be near the trainer. This trick is generally auditory, though a visual command is possible.

Mount -- The animal can be ridden, either bareback or saddled, as per the trainer's desire. Each, however, is a separate trick, and must be taught as such.

Complex tricks include the following, noting the list is not complete:

Guard -- The animal moves with its trainer, attacking as commanded; it will give up its life to save its master.

Labor -- The animal can perform some sort of manual task, such as plowing or moving trees.

Warmount -- The animal serves as an effective mount, usable in combat. The animal will attack on its own, if possible.

Castle Keepers are encouraged to create unusual tricks such as pick pockets or others, based on the trainer's abilities and those of the animal.

[StealthSuitStanley]

WOW! What a response!

I wasn't expecting this. There is a lot of useful information here! I think I may try to get Witterquick to allow some of this to our campaign.

I also like the idea of a Badgerlord. Frankie's gonna LOVE that one! He can train the badger to dig a hole large enough to bury a gnome. That way if he dies, the badger can have a little ceremony...
_________________
later

SSS

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"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[Maliki]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
I hear where you're coming from Irda. From my experience playing characters with animal handling abilities, I've had lots of animals die.

Players in my campaigns, tend not to bother anymore, most animal companions end up dead, or they become useless at higher levels.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[serleran]

Personally, its one of those things I like to do in a game, but have found few DMs/CKs that allow it. One, because it is possible to be abusive (if allowed), especially with a lemure or other monkey-like creature (or ferrets, if you've seen Beastmaster) which can impair or annoy the party thief, and other animals, like bears can make better fighters than the warriors in the group. However, its also fun to "train" the wizard's familiar, too. Otherwise, if the DM keeps having more interesting animals (think dinosaurs), the ability to train them might not ever "run out."