Sneak attack

[jdizzy001]

How difficult do you make this ability to trigger? 3.5E and onward makes it very easy (get flanking or somehow deny your opponent their dex bonus to AC). I am also inclined to allow this as most of my time has been spent playing 3.5E and 4E.

What are some alternative ways you allow your assassins and rouges to trigger their sneak attack?

I was thinking, if they couldn't flank or attack from the shadows, I would allow my PCs to make a Dex Seige check as a kind of feint which would "throw off" his opponent and trigger the sneak attack. However, I could only allow this once or twice per encounter.

[Go0gleplex]

If I remember this conversation in an earlier thread and without checking the book, sneak attack does not require a back or flank attack to work. It only requires that the target be unaware of an incoming attack. So a dagger hidden in a bouquet of flowers presented by 'a maiden' and suddenly stabbed into them would qualify as a sneak attack.

Back attack is the one that requires the rear and/or flanking while being unaware.

[jdizzy001]

All it says is that the receiver of a sneak attack does not have to be aware of the atk. I interpret that to mean that they can use sneak atk if the defender is fending off multiple opponents. That being said, I found an advantage in the CKG that does exactly what I just described in the OP (award a sneak atk after a successful dex check). Another advantage I would give out freely, along with cleave for fighters with combat dominance.

[Go0gleplex]

All it says is that the receiver of a sneak attack does not have to be aware of the atk. I interpret that to mean that they can use sneak atk if the defender is fending off multiple opponents.

If the target is unaware of them or they present as un-threatening, then yeah. Exactly that. But if they are going in with weapons out or an obvious combat posture, then no. They are simply yet another opponent coming from a bad angle for the target whom has their hands full but is still capable of threat assessments. The whole context of the term sneak in this use is 'an attack from an unexpected source upon an unassuming target'. This was made very clear in the earlier discussion I mentioned which, if memory serves, originated as a clarification request upon the difference between the Rogue's Back Attack vs their Sneak Attack.

That being said, I found an advantage in the CKG that does exactly what I just described in the OP (award a sneak atk after a successful dex check). Another advantage I would give out freely, along with cleave for fighters with combat dominance.

If referring to Acrobatic Maneuver, then yeah, the DEX check is basically allowing the character to use something like Parkour to get into a position above the target which is seldom watched, thus fulfilling the requirements of the sneak attack context as stated since it would be really unexpected for someone to Jackie Chan up a corner and off the ceiling to attack.

[Treebore]

Thieves, and especially Assassins, do far more damage if they actually make use of poisons. So I personally don't really see a need to make them even better in melee, when they really should be staying at range shooting arrows, or throwing darts, with their best poisons on them.

[jdizzy001]

Fair points, I just try and keep options open for my players. I don't like pigeon holing them into a specific stereotype if I don't have to. If one of my rogues doesn't want to shoot arrows from the dark with poison, but would rather melee attack Errol Flynn style, I like to try and accommodate.

[Captain_K]

Sneak and back attacks take a long time and normally place the thief or assassin in harms way if the opponent does not drop. If poison is common for them to use then all the better for them to get in big damage (ever so rarely).. I say, ever so rarely, since normally they have to set it up, wait, then get one stab at it.. so I have tied many times myself and had many over the years try... it does not happen more than once and then not every fight... so I would let the facts rule your game. Start off making it easy and when the thief or assassin is out stripping the killing by fighters by even half, then its time to back off some. But I find that's the high point of that class, the smooth and silent kill, with or without poison.

So go for it, everyone loves it and most don't feel cheated that the thief dropped one bad guy, even the big bad guy.. about time the shifty eyed, smooth talking kid started pulling his weight!

[Fizz]

I think i do it by the book (though don't have it in front of me). If the target is unaware of the attack, sneak attack applies. So a thief could be hidden in a bush directly in front of the thief, and an arrow comes flying out and hits him in the face: sneak attack.

I agree with those that think 3E made sneaks too easy. Those 3e rogues could make more sneak attacks than regular attacks- how's that sneaky if it's the norm? Sneak attacks should be rare and special, in my opinion.

-Fizz

[dcfitch]

Are we referring only to the sneak attack obtained at 4th level? The "sneak attack" at levels 1-3 are back attacks only, and the rogue must make a move silent or hide check to make it work. At 4th level, the rogue can expand this use to frontal attacks when the target is aware of the rogue, but is unaware of the pending attack.

Playing a rogue, I have always had a hard time making back attacks work. But, then again, other players who are better tacticians may not have had any difficulties. I like the idea of allowing any flanking rogue to use the back attack option. But that is not RAW.

[jdizzy001]

I was referring sneak attack. I know back attack is much harder to accomplish, so I am actually looking more at the assassin as he starts with sneak attack. However, since their is an advantage in the CKG which one can use to activate the sneak attack with a siege check a lot of my concerns have been resolved.

[Giant2005]

I was referring sneak attack. I know back attack is much harder to accomplish, so I am actually looking more at the assassin as he starts with sneak attack. However, since their is an advantage in the CKG which one can use to activate the sneak attack with a siege check a lot of my concerns have been resolved.

You need to talk to your CK.
Even with that Advantage, there is some contention as to whether or not you could pull off such a feat - I believe the same as you, but have been ruled against in practice.
Basically, the argument is that Acrobatic Maneuver allows you to use the Sneak Attack ability, but it does not remove Sneak Attack's requirements. Most notably the "unsuspecting of attack" clause. In my eyes, that interpretation makes Acrobatic Maneuver basically useless (it replaces a Dex check from Hide/Move Silently, with a Dex check from Acrobatic Maneuver), but you should still be aware that it is certainly possible to have it ruled against you in such a way.