Simple skill system

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:05 am

Hi all-

Here's an idea for a quick and dirty secondary skill system for C&C.

First- how to define the skills? I like the 2nd Edition AD&D Player's Handbook section on proficiencies myself. For those not familiar with it, some example include: Agriculture, Direction Sense, Rope Use, Engineering, Gaming, Armoring, Astrology, etc. There are dozens of different skills, no means exhaustive.

Regardless of the source, all you really need is the descriptive text. The CK will define the CLs.

All characters start with 4 secondary skill slots. 1 slot in a skill means you improve that skill at a rate of +1 every 2 levels. These are `secondary' skills, after all.

But if you want a character who is a master in this skill, you can put 2 slots into one skill, and that skill then improves at +1 per level.

And that's it. I think this retains the C&C spirit of simplicity while allowing some rounding out of characters.

-Fizz

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:27 pm

Looks pretty good, Fizz.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:34 pm

I like this system as well, and use it almost exactly in this way. This system has worked good for a few years now.

The only difference I use is that I allow the PCs a new skill (proficiency slot) every character level. This allows for a simple, albeit more skill focused game.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:07 pm

I like it quite a bit. The 1/2 vs. Full check progression is a nice way to do it. The AD&D 2e NWP list is also a good source to start with, since the skills are quite distinct from most class abilities and stay away from the 3e concept of "untrained skills."

The only mechanic I would like to see would be how to acquire additional skills. I'm not a fan of Omote's mechanic of linking it to level advancement, and would prefer optional EP expenditures or in-game time studying.
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Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:57 pm

I like it Fizz -- simple and useful.
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Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:38 pm

It's certainly quick, but I don't know if I'd call it dirty! It's pretty nice, actually. Definitely an idea I can get behind.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:39 pm

Moorcrys wrote:
I like it Fizz -- simple and useful.

Looks good to me as well.
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pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:13 am

Very nicely done.
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:14 am

Thanks for all the kind words everybody!

Omote wrote:
The only difference I use is that I allow the PCs a new skill (proficiency slot) every character level. This allows for a simple, albeit more skill focused game.

I thought about this, but wasn't sure how to do it. If a character gets a new slot and puts it into a new skill, and what level does he use the skill?

My system grants a bonus of +1 every 2 levels. So in your system, if you pick up a new skill at, say, 10th level, does he immediately have a +5 bonus with it? Or do keep track of what skills were gained at each level?

-Fizz

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:18 am

irda ranger wrote:
The only mechanic I would like to see would be how to acquire additional skills. I'm not a fan of Omote's mechanic of linking it to level advancement, and would prefer optional EP expenditures or in-game time studying.

Yeah, i was wondering about an EP price for new skills too. But like Omote's, i'm not sure about how to account for level? Is a new skill gained with a bonus equal to half your level immediately? Or do you have to keep track of it from the point of purchase?

It's certainly possible to track it but it is a bit more paperwork and seems a bit out of synch with the way the rest of the system works. But conversely, getting an instant bonus at purchase doesn't make much physical sense.

-Fizz

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:21 am

I allow skills to be bought in two ways: with a flat bonus, or a class-linked bonus.

If you buy the flat bonus you get +X, and that's it. Your level is irrelevant. You pay the price once, and you're done.

If you buy the class-linked skill you get count the the number of levels you have earned since you acquired the skill (so if you're 10th level, and you got the skill at level 7, you have a +4 in that skill (a +1 for each of levels 7, 8, 9 and 10)). There is an ongoing EP cost to doing this however, which is added to the EPP for your class (Additional_EP = Skill's_Base_Cost * New_Level). You can also divert EP from your normal class leveling to the skill to "catch up" your skill bonus to your current level.

It's not as simple as your system, but it feels "more accurate" to me.

The more I think about your system though ... why should leveling up as a Fighter make you better at Farming or Carpentry? There might be some NWP I see as improving (e.g., a pirate's Navigation skill), but a lot of them just "don't make sense."
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:27 am

Fizz wrote:
Thanks for all the kind words everybody!

I thought about this, but wasn't sure how to do it. If a character gets a new slot and puts it into a new skill, and what level does he use the skill?

My system grants a bonus of +1 every 2 levels. So in your system, if you pick up a new skill at, say, 10th level, does he immediately have a +5 bonus with it? Or do keep track of what skills were gained at each level?

The way I do it is, let us say that the PC selects ALCHEMY as one of his INT based skills (proficiencies). Selecting this skill once gives him a +1 to a INT-based skill check. These checks use the standard 18/12 rule. Challenge Level comes into play as the CK wishes.

ALCHEMY (Int) (+1 because this skill has been "selected." = SEIGE check vs INT. If this check beats and 18/12 + CL, then the check is successful.

If the same PC would select ALCHEMY more then once, each additional selection adds a further +1 to the dice roll.

This method has worked excellent so far.

.....................................Omote

FPQ
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:54 am

irda ranger wrote:
The more I think about your system though ... why should leveling up as a Fighter make you better at Farming or Carpentry? There might be some NWP I see as improving (e.g., a pirate's Navigation skill), but a lot of them just "don't make sense."

This is a problem with most systems. It really depends how detailed you want to take it.

Personally, if i wanted to make a system that accounted for such factors, i'd make it for primary abilities of the class. That's where the focus of gameplay is, thus that's where the detail should be, if anywhere.

For example, i could play a rogue that never picks pockets ("filty street crime"), yet his bonus to do it goes up every level anyways. But C&C doesn't allow for that.

So why should secondary skills be more complex than primary class abilities? Since secondary skills are for rounding out the character, i don't think it's worth too much effort in modelling all the details.

But ymmv...

-Fizz

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:56 am

Omote wrote:
If the same PC would select ALCHEMY more then once, each additional selection adds a further +1 to the dice roll.

Oh i see- yours is a static bonus that only changes with each slot. Fair enough. Nice and simple, with only a little more bookkeeping.

-Fizz

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:03 pm

If you take into account the potential for parallel development, the system devised by Gary is the best way to go. Skills are really secondary, yet they can be improved at the cost XPs. Consistently, these are XPs that the character would expend to advance in his class skills. So, the system models the fact that one cannot develop in completely orthogonal fields.

I find it is one of the best and fast skill systems around. I like it so much that I ported it to AD&D, too
Cheers,

Antonio

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:26 pm

Another system I have successfully used with C&C, is to select a number of skills which are "appropriate" for a class. Then, at the start, every class has a number of choices (2+int modifier) among this list. These improve at the same rating as the class level afterward.

However, a character can "choose" even a skill which is not in his roster, however it will "improve" just at half the class level.

Every 3 levels, the character can choose to either add another skill from his "favoured" list (at full levels), or add another skill outside his list (at half levels) or "improve" a previously known "out-of-list" skill to the status of "list skill" (and thus gaining full levels).

So, overall, a character is really good just at skills on his roster; or, if he wants to be good even at other skills, they cost effectively "double".

I found this system to be quick, without the need of "bookkeeping", and reliable. It addresses more or less all the points which have been raised in the previous posts in a consistent way.

Cheers,

Antonio

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:39 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Another system I have successfully used with C&C, is to select a number of skills which are "appropriate" for a class. Then, at the start, every class has a number of choices (2+int modifier) among this list. These improve at the same rating as the class level afterward.

I considered the 2+Int thing too- makes that attribute a bit more important. But personally i'm not keen on the notion of `appropriate' secondary skills. I think all secondary skills should be appropriate to all classes.

But that's just my preference...

-Fizz

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:47 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
If you take into account the potential for parallel development, the system devised by Gary is the best way to go. Skills are really secondary, yet they can be improved at the cost XPs.

When you say `Gary', are you referring to the system for Castle Zagyg?

If so, while i don't mind the system per se, i dislike how the skills are organized into groups, and that several overlap with many class abilities. Ambush gives you several rogue skills, Woodsman give you several ranger skills, etc.

That's why i like the 2nd Ed PHB nonweapon proficiencies. They're very specific, and only a few of them overlap with any class abilities.

-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:56 pm

The CZ system is supposed to overlap, as it was derived from the LA game where there are no archetypes. In fact, the CZ method is so "expensive" because it, in effect, allows one to multiclass without having to multiclass, becuase many of the bundles comprise class abilities. Failing that, perhaps some interest can be rekindled in my classless C&C... Probably not, but its worth a shot. Failing that, I do not think any given system showcases the way skills are earned, and used, appropriately. Its not a matter of intelligence, or any other attribute, but of exposure, and inclination. The best way to showcase that is by XP, either spent directly, or as "debt" prior to adventuring. Hmmm... gives me a thought. Maybe an expansion of my already created apprentice rules might be useful.