Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

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vivsavage
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Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

I love playing around with house rules, and I came up with the following to address some of my hangups with the SIEGE engine. My basic issues are thus:
1) The 12/18 challenge base for primes vs non-primes is too great
2) Classes without a prime attribute in one or more of their abilities (non-human rangers can't have primes in all of their class abilities, for example)
3) Adding your level to tests creates significant disparities as you increase in level

Please note that these are my hangups, and I'm not suggesting these are universal problems. So I respectfully ask that we not debate whether these are, in fact, actual problems.

Here is a solution that I rather like:

Challenge Base is 10 for every test, save combat attacks (where Base to Hit and AC values remain as in the RAW).

Challenge level is ranked on a 0-10 scale. In cases where the CL is based on a spell or monster’s HD, use half the value rounded up. For example, a creature with 5 HD would pose a CL of 3. A saving throw against a 7th level spell would face a CL of 4.

Using these limitations insures Challenge Classes have an upper limit of 20.

Each attribute has three modifiers: base, prime, and class.

Base modifiers are ranked on the standard -3 to +3 scale.

Prime modifiers equal the base modifier +2.

Class modifiers equal the prime modifier plus 2 to 5, depending on the character’s level (see below). Class modifiers are used when the test is directly related to the character’s class (a ranger tracking or a rogue picking a pocket, for example).

Using these values limits attribute modifiers to +10 without magical means.

Image

For example:

A 4th level bard with STR 10, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 15, WIS 7, CHA 17 and primes in DEX and CHA would have an attribute modifier breakdown like this:
Image

Since this character is a bard, any of his class abilities using CHA would receive a +7 bonus to his d20 test rolls. Since DEX is not used in any bard abilities, he would not use his class modifier for DEX rolls unless the CK makes an exception; for example, perhaps the bard is attempting to play his lute for a king. Playing a musical instrument seems like something a bard should be able to do, so the CK grants the player the use of his class modifier.

In play, the CK will ask for either a prime or class-based roll.

There might be a slight amount more time involved in chargen using this process, but I believe it would be very efficient in play. I like that primes aren't as powerful as in the RAW, and that all class abilities would never be overshadowed by another character with a prime attribute that outclassed the skilled character. Anyways, I hope it has some merit. Now to test it out...

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Rigon »

I don't see why it wouldn't work. I know that Tree runs any listed class ability is treated as being Prime for that character in his games and it works out fine. And Troll Lord Steve has all class abilities roll under the Class Prime. He likes that so much he wanted to change the rules to reflect that a while ago.

I've also toyed with changing Primes to start at 8/14 or 10/16, but haven't gotten around to doing it. But I know there are some people here who use the optional 9/15 Prime (or whatever it is) from the CKG and they seem to like it. Plus there is nothing wrong with halving CLs to better suit what you want to do (there are some here that do that too).

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by alcyone »

Report back after you use it for a while and let us know how it changed your game.
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Treebore »

Aergraith wrote:Report back after you use it for a while and let us know how it changed your game.
Yes. Definitely. Maybe do a write up about it to include in a future issue of Domesday...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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vivsavage
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

Treebore wrote:
Aergraith wrote:Report back after you use it for a while and let us know how it changed your game.
Yes. Definitely. Maybe do a write up about it to include in a future issue of Domesday...
That's a good idea. I'm going to put up a free work-in-progress version on DTRPG soon, adding more content every week until I get enough feedback to officially publish it.

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Fizz »

While i myself am not a fan of all-primes for class abilities, i know others are. Apparently it hasn't broken their game, so likely no worries there. :)

The prime difference i always thought was the result of math- it is 1 standard deviation of a d20 roll. (Of course, the Trolls just liked it as C&C is often a game of 6's.) The amount of Prime bonus is an option in the CKG too i think.

Otherwise, the level modifiers you propose sound a lot like D&D 5E, where as you grow in level, you don't gain so much in bonuses, but new skills and hit points.

I think my only potential worry is that some classes are more dependent on level bonuses than others, so i wonder if those classes should get a little extra something in terms of abilities to keep them growing. Just a thought.


-Fizz

vivsavage
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

Fizz wrote: Otherwise, the level modifiers you propose sound a lot like D&D 5E, where as you grow in level, you don't gain so much in bonuses, but new skills and hit points.

I think my only potential worry is that some classes are more dependent on level bonuses than others, so i wonder if those classes should get a little extra something in terms of abilities to keep them growing. Just a thought.
You could be right. It will be a matter of playtesting and personal preference more than anything. My main goal was to keep challenge class to a limit of 20 and with a challenge base of 10. Another solutions, might be:
- Prime attributes allow you to roll a pair of d20s, such as 5e's "advantage" mechanic.
- Add your level to all class-related checks, or perhaps half level.

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Omote »

Whereas this topic is not my cup o' tea, I certainly do love the cover of your rules supplement. Wow!

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by serleran »

A while back, I tested capping difficulty at 12. There are several reasons for it, including the level "limit" in the PHB and the symmetry of reversal for Primes. I also liked that it resulted in a similar result to that of the AC "maximum" at 30. Worked alright. High level means something. Really means something.

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Lurker »

Omote wrote:Whereas this topic is not my cup o' tea, I certainly do love the cover of your rules supplement. Wow!

~O

Rgr that !
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Tadhg »

Lurker wrote:
Omote wrote:Whereas this topic is not my cup o' tea, I certainly do love the cover of your rules supplement. Wow!

~O

Rgr that !
No!

Ewwww, creepy! :shock:

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vivsavage
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

Fizz wrote:While i myself am not a fan of all-primes for class abilities, i know others are. Apparently it hasn't broken their game, so likely no worries there. :)

The prime difference i always thought was the result of math- it is 1 standard deviation of a d20 roll. (Of course, the Trolls just liked it as C&C is often a game of 6's.) The amount of Prime bonus is an option in the CKG too i think.

Otherwise, the level modifiers you propose sound a lot like D&D 5E, where as you grow in level, you don't gain so much in bonuses, but new skills and hit points.

I think my only potential worry is that some classes are more dependent on level bonuses than others, so i wonder if those classes should get a little extra something in terms of abilities to keep them growing. Just a thought.


-Fizz
Thinking more on it, what if the CKG Advantage system were used? Would that help giving classes a "little something extra?"

vivsavage
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

In trying to come up with numbers that work for me, I made this table. Thought it might be of interest.

Image

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Fizz »

vivsavage wrote:Thinking more on it, what if the CKG Advantage system were used? Would that help giving classes a "little something extra?"
Maybe. And if you already use Advantages, then they can become the equivalent of 3E feats- some classes just get more.

-Fizz

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Fizz »

vivsavage wrote:In trying to come up with numbers that work for me, I made this table. Thought it might be of interest.
So what is the purpose of the table, exactly?

I think the way to figure out if it's right for you is to consider the extremes. Consider a 12th level character facing a CC of 20. Then compare the values for each of the 3 cases you have below (base, prime, class).

For a character with attribute score of 10, the chances of success are:
Base: 5%; Prime: 5%; Class: 20%

For a character with attribute score of 18, the chances of success are:
Base: 20%; Prime: 30%; Class: 45%

This means that at high levels, your class-prime bonus is almost the same as the book's standard prime. (+5 vs +6) Is that what you were going for?

This puts a lot of emphasis on class abilities and primes. Anything requiring a non-prime, non-class, is pretty difficult.

Anyways, does all that help?


-Fizz

vivsavage
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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by vivsavage »

Fizz wrote: So what is the purpose of the table, exactly?
So I can quickly look at chances of success for a variety of methods.
Fizz wrote: Consider a 12th level character facing a CC of 20. Then compare the values for each of the 3 cases you have below (base, prime, class).

For a character with attribute score of 10, the chances of success are:
Base: 5%; Prime: 5%; Class: 20%

For a character with attribute score of 18, the chances of success are:
Base: 20%; Prime: 30%; Class: 45%
Thanks for the ideas. I'll crunch more numbers and see what works for me.

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Fizz »

vivsavage wrote:So I can quickly look at chances of success for a variety of methods.
OK, that's what i thought. Wanted to be sure i didn't miss anything. :)
Thanks for the ideas. I'll crunch more numbers and see what works for me.
When i tinker with systems, i have found that it's always best to check the two extremes. If they're acceptable, then the middle ground usually takes care of itself. Let us know how it goes- i'm curious how it works out.


-Fizz

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by Gundoggy »

I just use Tertiary Attributes as per the CKG.

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Re: Hacking the SIEGE engine to limit CC to 20

Post by jdizzy001 »

Like Gundog says, I use and really like the tertiary abilities. The 12/15/18 split helps alieveate the huge gap between 12/18.
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