Illusionist's Sharp Senses

[Fizz]

Hi all-

The illusionist ability sharp senses grants a saving throw against illusions. That's an Int save. But the ability says that it is a Wisdom-based ability.

So what does this mean? Does this mean the illusionist must make a Wisdom check to determine if he gets the saving throw bonus?

Or is it just a typo?

-Fizz

[citizen_drow]

Fizz, I would just use the bonus to INT saves to simplify things.

Cheers.

[gideon_thorne]

For the illusionist the class ability save is Wisdom. Its not a typo. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

[Fizz]

gideon_thorne wrote:
For the illusionist the class ability save is Wisdom. Its not a typo. ^_^

So, are you saying when an illusionist makes a save against an illusion, he uses his wisdom, not his intelligence like other characters?

-Fizz

[gideon_thorne]

Fizz wrote:
So, are you saying when an illusionist makes a save against an illusion, he uses his wisdom, not his intelligence like other characters?

-Fizz

Yup yup. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[irda ranger]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yup yup. ^_^

That's stupid. I'd try to phrase that better, but it's late and I'm very tired.

An Illusionist's best stat is usually his Int. He is required to be Int-Prime. Making this Wis-based almost guarantees that his save vs. Illusion will be worse than a regular Wizard's.

I'd either rule that this ability lets an Illusionst add his Wis modifier to the save (in additional to his Int modifier) or ignore the whole Wis thing entirely and just add the bonus. It would definately still be an Int-based save.
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[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yup yup. ^_^

Wouldn't that be a penalty for him? Considering he has INT as a prime and prolly a pretty decent score there too?

[irda ranger]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Wouldn't that be a penalty for him? Considering he has INT as a prime and prolly a pretty decent score there too?

Yes.
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[serleran]

I would never make an illusionist save against illusions using Wisdom. Its utter blasphemy. I believe the class ability is meant to allow the illusionist to notice an illusion even when there is no call for it, that being based on Wisdom. For example, to ordinarily disbelieve, a character must have some sort of reason, some sort of "that's not right." An illusionist, however, is trained to notice or, inherently "disbelieve", and can see things others would not. So, even if the illusion is perfect, another illusionist can look at perceive something subtle, and forgotten in the translation.... and get a Wisdom save to say "hey, that's not right." If it works, they then get their normal Intelligence save, when otherwise, they would not, and that at a bonus! So, overall, a fairly good ability... if taken in that context. Otherwise... if all it is is "illusionists use Wisdom to save vs illusions..." I have to say: "one of the worst rules of C&C."

[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
That's stupid. I'd try to phrase that better, but it's late and I'm very tired.

An Illusionist's best stat is usually his Int. He is required to be Int-Prime. Making this Wis-based almost guarantees that his save vs. Illusion will be worse than a regular Wizard's.

I'd either rule that this ability lets an Illusionst add his Wis modifier to the save (in additional to his Int modifier) or ignore the whole Wis thing entirely and just add the bonus. It would definately still be an Int-based save.

*smiles* A human illusionist with Int, Wis and Cha primes is a formidable member of his class. But like the ranger, its all about choices.

I voted for giving the class sleight of hand (dex) as well. Unfortunately it was shot down. Its a houserule in my game however. This causes yet another choice to be made.

But in any event, there are choices to be made and sacrefices in any class. Some are less obvious than others.

The core issue is obviously open to interpretation. And clearly folks have other methods to handle it. I'm just passing along what I understand is the 'why' of the construction of the class. I'm certainly not out to win a popularity contest.
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Peter Bradley

[irda ranger]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* A human illusionist with Int, Wis and Cha primes is a formidable member of his class. But like the ranger, its all about choices.

And a Gnome Thief-Illusionist with Int & Dex primes is worse at detecting illusions than a regular magic user. This is just dumb.

I agree with Serleran: Worst. Rule. Ever.
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[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
And a Gnome Thief-Illusionist with Int & Dex primes is worse at detecting illusions than a regular magic user. This is just dumb.

I agree with Serleran: Worst. Rule. Ever.

*smiles* With the gnomes inate abilties who would want to play the above combination? Seems like overkill to me.

I'll see if I can't get some clarification from Davis over the weekend. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I'll clarify the party line anyhow.
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Peter Bradley

[Technomancer]

Could it be possible that Illusionists are supposed to be worse at detecting illusions? Perhaps a unique perception they possess that allows them to excel at creating illusions makes illusions more "real" to them, and thus gives them a worse save when trying to figure out that something else is an illusion?

I'm reaching here, trying to come up with an explanation. I agree on the surface it doesn't make sense.

EDIT-But then I guess calling it "sharp" sense would be dumb.

[Fizz]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* A human illusionist with Int, Wis and Cha primes is a formidable member of his class. But like the ranger, its all about choices.

But the ranger's choices don't make him WORSE at something than the other classes. A ranger who does not have Wisdom as a prime will still be a better tracker than other classes in the long run.

Illusions are a specialty. It's what the class is all about. How can you be worse at your specialty than another who doesn't have that specialty (ie, wizard). All wizards are better at seeing through illusions than most illusionists? That's ridiculous.

Plus it's just nonsensical for saves against illusions to be based on Intelligence for everybody else and not the illusionist. What's the physical logic there?

-Fizz

[gideon_thorne]

Fizz wrote:
But the ranger's choices don't make him WORSE at something than the other classes. A ranger who does not have Wisdom as a prime will still be a better tracker than other classes in the long run.

*chuckles* Now that depends on who you ask. But if a ranger doesnt take wisdom as prime, he's not going to be any better at tracking than an illusionist is going to be at spotting illusions. Both classes still add their level, the illusionist still gets some bonus's.

Quote:
Illusions are a specialty. It's what the class is all about. How can you be worse at your specialty than another who doesn't have that specialty (ie, wizard). All wizards are better at seeing through illusions than most illusionists? That's ridiculous.

Same way a Ranger can be if one makes different prime choices.

Quote:
Plus it's just nonsensical for saves against illusions to be based on Intelligence for everybody else and not the illusionist. What's the physical logic there?

Probably no physical logic. Just wisdom logic.

*smiles* But dont shoot the messenger. Im just conveying the reasoning.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[irda ranger]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Now that depends on who you ask. But if a ranger doesnt take wisdom as prime, he's not going to be any better at tracking than an illusionist is going to be at spotting illusions. Both classes still add their level, the illusionist still gets some bonus's.

Er, no. Tracking is a class ability, which means only a Ranger can (1) attemtp it, and (2) add his level to the roll. Save vs. Illusion is something that everyone can do, and everyone adds their level to it. Unless an Illusionist puts his best stat in Wis and makes it Prime, he will ALWAYS be worse than a magic-user of the same level at saves vs. illusion. The bonus the class grants will (at best) help him break even. It won't ever make up for a non-Prime.
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[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
Er, no. Tracking is a class ability, which means only a Ranger can (1) attemtp it, and (2) add his level to the roll. Save vs. Illusion is something that everyone can do, and everyone adds their level to it. Unless an Illusionist puts his best stat in Wis and makes it Prime, he will ALWAYS be worse than a magic-user of the same level at saves vs. illusion. The bonus the class grants will (at best) help him break even. It won't ever make up for a non-Prime.

I just noticed something on page 113 of the PHB under the saving throw categories. Magic/Illusion (intelligence OR wisdom)

Even Spells says (variable) ^_^

So I guess its covered either way.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
I believe the class ability is meant to allow the illusionist to notice an illusion even when there is no call for it, that being based on Wisdom. For example, to ordinarily disbelieve, a character must have some sort of reason, some sort of "that's not right." An illusionist, however, is trained to notice or, inherently "disbelieve", and can see things others would not. So, even if the illusion is perfect, another illusionist can look at perceive something subtle, and forgotten in the translation.... and get a Wisdom save to say "hey, that's not right." If it works, they then get their normal Intelligence save, when otherwise, they would not, and that at a bonus!

This is how I understood it and use it.

[rabindranath72]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I just noticed something on page 113 of the PHB under the saving throw categories. Magic/Illusion (intelligence OR wisdom)

Even Spells says (variable) ^_^

So I guess its covered either way.

Verily. Never had any problems

[Moorcrys]

Meh... absolutely silly if you ask me. I've never heard of a class ability have a chance to be worse than something all other classes can do. Do you force all classes to make wisdom saves versus illusions, or just illusionists, since their class ability to see through illusions is tied to wisdom? Under "Types of Saving Throws", page 112 of the PH, illusions are specifically categorized under Intelligence, and not Wisdom. In the expanded description on page 113, it is (rather poorly and lacking clarity in my opinion) lumped with the generic category "Magic" -- where the PH then goes on to describe when Wisdom is used to make a "Magic" save: when Divine (and not Arcane) spells are cast by a magic item or other object or when a divine spell like ability is used by a creature.

How game breaking is it to allow an illusionist a better chance to spot illusions?

Not shooting the messenger, but really... whoever decided Sharp Senses should be tied to Wisdom seems to have designed the Barbarian's Primal Fury ability as well.
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Moorcrys

[serleran]

Convenient loophole, I suppose, though I fail to see how an illusion would be anything other than intelligence as a save base. I suppose some, rather specific effects, could be wisdom... but on the whole, they are intelligence, still effectively weakening the archetype rather than strengthening it. However, that said, its also possible that the word "wisdom" was not supposed to be included in the description of the ability at all, and that he bonuses just apply, all the time, sort of like how a dwarf doesn't have "resistance (constitution)" for its ability to save against arcane spells and poisons....

[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
Convenient loophole, I suppose, though I fail to see how an illusion would be anything other than intelligence as a save base.

I can find a loopehole in a straight string. ^_~`

As to 'how an illusion can be anything other than intelligence as a save base', that comes down to the difference between knowledge(int) and instinct (wis). And how one rationalizes either. 8)
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[StealthSuitStanley]

Apparently a few of you missed this:

serleran wrote:
I believe the class ability is meant to allow the illusionist to notice an illusion even when there is no call for it, that being based on Wisdom. For example, to ordinarily disbelieve, a character must have some sort of reason, some sort of "that's not right." An illusionist, however, is trained to notice or, inherently "disbelieve", and can see things others would not. So, even if the illusion is perfect, another illusionist can look at perceive something subtle, and forgotten in the translation.... and get a Wisdom save to say "hey, that's not right." If it works, they then get their normal Intelligence save, when otherwise, they would not, and that at a bonus!

If I were to play an Illusionist...which is my favorite character class and of which I currently have a character in Witterquick's campaign I would be certain that the CK was experienced in the use of illusions in his game. It is easy for a CK to give away the fact that what the characters are seeing is an illusion even if they believe it. This effects the way the players play their characters. I think this class ability is exactly as Serl described. It is a chance to disbelieve an illusion in which you had no reason to disbelieve it in the first place. I find this to be a very good ability, especially if the CK really knows how to use illusion well.

Sure, believing an illusion is based on one's intellect being able to discern problems with what one is viewing. Breaking the laws of physics is one example. However, a good illusionist will try to make his illusions believalble. This is where the illusionists ability to have a sixth sense about illusions comes into play.

Think about it this way...counterfieters don't study counterfiet currency, they study the real thing. The idea is to make it as believable as possible.

Just like an illusionist does with his magic...
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[Technomancer]

Looking at how its worded, perhaps you make a WIS check to see if you get the bonus in the ability description to the actual saving throw (which would still use INT).

[Moorcrys]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
Apparently a few of you missed this:

That's an interesting interperetation or house rule but not really described in the ability... all that's listed under Sharp Senses is a +1 bonus to all illusion saving throws, with the bonus increasing over several levels. The only way I can figure it out as written (and involve Wisdom at all instead of just giving them the bonus outright) is that the illusionist makes a Wisdom check to see whether they add the bonus to their Intelligence save vs. illusions.
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Moorcrys

[Moorcrys]

Technomancer wrote:
Looking at how its worded, perhaps you make a WIS check to see if you get the bonus in the ability description to the actual saving throw (which would still use INT).

Heh... I just read this... my post above should just read "What technomancer said."
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Moorcrys

[Omote]

Heh, it does seem like it could be read in this way. Wich is a bit odd, mechanically speaking, but not out of the realm of playability.

..................................................Omote

FPQ
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[irda ranger]

I just had a chance to read the rule for myself last night. There is NO reference to having to make a check of any kind. You just get a bonus, period. There's also no mention of the fact that the saving throw would be based on Wisdom instead of Intelligence, like it is for everyone else. I would expect that if the Trolls meant to make a change to the default rules, they would have been a bit more explicit about it.

It's almost like someone said "Well, every class ability has a stat associated with it, so we'll make this 'Wisdom'", and no more thought was given to it.

My ruling now is that the books says what it says, and no more. You get the bonus; end of story. Nothing else is changed.

Serleran wrote:
I believe the class ability is meant to allow the illusionist to notice an illusion even when there is no call for it

I do like this concept however. Sort of like how Elves automatically roll a Search check if they come within 5' of hidden doors, maybe Illusionists automatically get a save vs. illusion if they come within a proscribed distance of an illusion (I would suggest 20-30').
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[Technomancer]

irda ranger wrote:
I just had a chance to read the rule for myself last night. There is NO reference to having to make a check of any kind. You just get a bonus, period. There's also no mention of the fact that the saving throw would be based on Wisdom instead of Intelligence, like it is for everyone else. I would expect that if the Trolls meant to make a change to the default rules, they would have been a bit more explicit about it.

It's almost like someone said "Well, every class ability has a stat associated with it, so we'll make this 'Wisdom'", and no more thought was given to it.

My ruling now is that the books says what it says, and no more. You get the bonus; end of story. Nothing else is changed.

But some class abilities do not have an associated stat. I always understood that the ones that did have an associated stat had to pass a check to use.

[Omote]

Technomancer wrote:
I always understood that the ones that did have an associated stat had to pass a check to use.

That is my thought as well. But I can clearly see Sharp Senses being a straight bonus, with no WIS check roll.

..............................................Omote

FPQ
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