The Dark Ages on the History Channel

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:19 am

The History Channel special, The Dark Ages is premiering tonight at 9pm!

Just an FYI
http://www.history.com/media.do?id=dark ... ction=clip

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:40 am

Dristram wrote:
The History Channel special, The Dark Ages is premiering tonight at 9pm!

Just an FYI
http://www.history.com/media.do?id=dark ... ction=clip

Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to tune in!!
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:48 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to tune in!!

Wow I totally forgot!!! Thanks for the reminder. Of course, they usually put all of their good stuff on On Demand.

phantos · Post by **phantos** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:56 am

I wish I had cable...

well I'd like to watch this but besides this I guess I am really happy to not have cable...

the show looks like its going to be great though,

I might DL it via itunes if it becomes available and depending on the feedback you guys give about it here.

heh.

(in a Frankenstein monster voice): TV bad. Books good.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:10 am

Looks to be interesting, but thats game night here.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:12 am

Something to torrent later. Too bad all the good stuff is always on channels I don't have, at times that are inconvenient. Thank the gods for the internet!

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:38 pm

I Tivod it, but havent gotten to watch it yet. Ill burn it to a DVD tonight and watch it at work tomorrow if I have time, it looked good from the commercials.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:40 pm

I watched the bulk of it last night. Pretty good. It did the mad 20 yard dash as it fit history from 410 through 12th century into two hours, but that's not surprising. Very enjoyable, I only to umbrage with one comment which went something like "peasants during the dark ages spent their winter months with absolutely nothing to do but drink. They had very busy harvest and growing seasons, but come winter, they literally had nothing to do." Well anyone who has ever stood next to a farm knows thats a bit of an exageration. Cows still have to be milked, butter churned, fire wood gathered, buildings repaired, clothes mended, food preparation alone is an onerous task, equipment mended, etc etc" I suspect they worked, must like American frontiersman worked....which is all the flipping time.
But otherwise very good. Good context for me as I'm reading Edward Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and I'm on the chapters dealing with Justianian.

Steve
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:18 pm

It was pretty good. I did find that comment about doing nothing but drinking during the winter months a little strange too. I really enjoyed hearing the professor from UNC-Chapel Hill speak. He blew out a couple of myths (e.g. during the "ordeals" they didn't let the "innocent" just sink to the bottom of the water and drown), and help remind everyone not to look down on the people of that era just because of the large atrocities we remember (we've had some of our own). At least the History Channel had the guts to keep in the info about the Moorish invasions what with today's climate and all. I think the whole thing was very balanced and objective (Vikings just defending their homeland my ass! ).

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:39 pm

Orpheus wrote:
At least the History Channel had the guts to keep in the info about the Moorish invasions what with today's climate and all. I think the whole thing was very balanced and objective (Vikings just defending their homeland my ass! ).

I agree. I was curious how they were going to deal with Charle Martel and the Moors as it seems pretty stylish in the West to portray Islam as a religion of peace and enlightenment. But they handled it well.

I often wonder about the title Dark Ages for the era. Understanding that many of the socio-cultural developments of the Roman Empire survived through the church, I rather think of that era as the birth of a new civilization, the Germanic one on the ruins of an older, collapsed civilization. In this light, the "Dark Ages" become a period of growth and development (much akin to the Eutruscan (sic) and early Roman wars that saw the birth of that civilization). All civilizations start from a barbaric origins...or at least they did.

Steve
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
All civilizations start from a barbaric origins...or at least they did.

Steve

Well sure. We still speak English, right?

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:51 pm

Well what I speak is hardly english! But point taken!

Steve
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:11 pm

I wanted to catch this but ended up watching a show on prison gangs, then the Lost Tomb of Jesus or whatever it was called.. It's rare when a single show comes on TV that I want to see, let alone 2 at the same time.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:20 pm

I enjoyed the special. While I generally prefer to read, it was a perfect program for a Sunday evening when I looking to kick back and relax a litte.

Incidentally, I noticed that the History channel has some very good programming lately. I think I may have been turned off to it, when it seemed like all they featured was WWII history programs.

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:34 pm

Too much WWII stuff on the History Channel you say? It's still a damn good channel, but we lovingly refer to it now as the 'Nazi Channel."

.............................................Omote

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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:05 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
But otherwise very good. Good context for me as I'm reading Edward Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and I'm on the chapters dealing with Justianian.

Steve

You shame me, Sir! I've had this book on my list for years and still have not read it.
It might be partly because I hesitate to read so much about the downfall/aftermath of such a great civilization as Rome.

The beauty, splendor, opulence as well as the tremendous armies, history and fantastical people of those times just so appeals to me.

But you now inspire me to read this book. I even pulled out an interesting novel about the Emperor Julian (Constantine's nephew) by Gore Vidal. He mentions Gibbon in the preface and bibliography.

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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:37 pm

What a better read then about the downfall of Rome. Even though to whole of Roman hsitory is interesting, to me, the decline is even more interesting. Think about the power of the entire society and how it ended. Chilling to be on the outside looking in.

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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:25 pm

It's not fair.... I want to see it...... To bad I'm still in AZ training. To busy to watch TV but (I hope) my wife recorded it for me! I actually missing power nap time to catch up here.

Quote:
They had very busy harvest and growing seasons, but come winter, they literally had nothing to do." Well anyone who has ever stood next to a farm knows thats a bit of an exageration. Cows still have to be milked, butter churned, fire wood gathered, buildings repaired, clothes mended, food preparation alone is an onerous task, equipment mended, etc etc" I suspect they worked, must like American frontiersman worked....which is all the flipping time.

I agree. God know I carried my share of water to the pigs cows & chickens before school when the troughs were frozen, but the thought of spending 3 months a year sloshed sounds good.

Quote:
What a better read then about the downfall of Rome. Even though to whole of Roman hsitory is interesting, to me, the decline is even more interesting. Think about the power of the entire society and how it ended. Chilling to be on the outside looking in.

To true!
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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:56 pm

at the risk of opening myself up to the disdain of all my good C&C colleagues here, I'll say that I really hated the Dark Ages program on the HIstory Channel.

As Steve (I think) hinted, the basic premise of "Dark" vs. "Light" is a hackneyed bit of teleology that serves only to make us in the present feel good about how much better we are than people in the past. This framing device of Dark vs Light (or, of 'decline' and 'progress') assumes a universal standard of what constitutes 'good' or 'civilized' behavior, and is for that reason one which historians have rightfully rejected over the past century.

While I have no gripes with the talking heads (save for Martin, the bearded energetic guy, who uncritically repeated lots of old myths), several of whom I know, I take a lot of umbrage at the ominous narration and oversimplistic writing that marked this program.

I in no way am attempting to 'smooth over' or 'sanitize' the early middle ages, nor am I attempting to deny that there were many important and serious changes which affected Europe between 400 and 1100 (perhaps the most important was demographic collapse and the ruralization - or, perhaps, the re-ruralization - of portions of the Mediterranean littoral). Indeed, it is undeniably true that the production of high culture writings (philosophy, history, literature, theology, etc) slowed to a trickle in the 6th and 7th centuries. Yet the main writers on the Dark Ages program eschewed all context and nuance in favor of simplistic and sensationalist claims.

I'll mention just two big issues. The 'blood eagle' has largely been discounted as a Viking practice, and even if there is one source which suggests that something like it was performed on King Aella, real historians would also inquire into the quality and motivation of the author of that source (which the HC folks were unwilling to do - and why not? shocking scenes of torture make for better TV). A second big point. The first part of the show asserts a dramatic collapse in everything roman in the 4th - 5th centuries (even though the talking heads, and in a few hints, the narrator himself, suggest that this 'decline' was much longer and more gradual than the show lets on). The viewer is consequently left with this strange vision of Justinian attempting to reconquer an already depopulated and 'miserable' world in the west. And yet archaeologists over hte past 40 years have showed pretty definitively that urban culture and trade continued without interruption (although on a gradually smaller scale) until the late 6th century. That is, as some have suggested, Justinian's Gothic Wars may well have been the cause of the collapse of urban culture in Italy (where it was strongest in the west).

Okay, one last point. The show offers a picture of the wise, old Alfred setting up burghs, defeating the vikings, and trying to stem the 'darkness'. Yet when Alfred did all that he was in his twenties; he wasn't an old greybeard (and he certainly never wore a crown in combat!).

I haven't even ranted about the show's depiction of the 'barbarian' Germanic tribes. ARgh!

But enough ranting. I apologize. Everyone is entitled to their own views, of course. In some limited way, any discussion of the past has merit. It's just that as someone with way too much invested in this period, i was bitterly disappointed at the loss of a good opportunity to present some current interpretations of a pretty vibrant and vital period in european history. The writers and producers instead opted for an antiquated view of the period as marked by barbarism, savagery, and 'darkness'. Hence my disappointment.

Geleg

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:04 pm

Geleg wrote:
at the risk of opening myself up to the disdain of all my good C&C colleagues here, I'll say that I really hated the Dark Ages program on the HIstory Channel.

You, sir, have my disdain.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:34 pm

ah, I probably deserve it! it was sort of a long rant!

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